Units forgetting orders

[CMplayer]

A good feature for the game would be

the following: If you give a targetting

order to a unit, and if overrides your

order, then it should remember to continue

your original order as soon as the other

threat has subsided.

In particular, when I have ordered a tank

or gun to do *area fire* somewhere, if it

switches to some other target, then it

never returns to doing its area fire

job until the next turn, when new orders

can be given. This can lead to tanks

sitting there doing nothing, for several

turns. If other lives are dependant on

their following orders, the results are

silly, and make possible gamey tactics

like presenting a zook or flamethrower

for 5 seconds, to effectively cancel all

the enemy's AFV's area-fire orders.

--Rett

(Sorry if this has been hashed to death

in the past. I belong to the uncouth

mob that doesn't believe in doing searches

first.)

[lcm1947]

Yes this does happen but most of the time if I recall they do go back to killing whoever I wanted them to, but yeah you're right. Makes you mad doesn't it?

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lcm1947:

Yes this does happen but most of the time if I recall they do go back to killing whoever I wanted them to, but yeah you're right. Makes you mad doesn't it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You often have to use _area fire_ to target

infantry in buildings/forest with HE,

otherwise as soon as they go prone the

tank won't see them and will stop putting

shells into the cover.

So in this case, no, they won't go back to

killing who I want them to kill.

Show him one flamethrower, for 5 seconds,

and he will stop putting 105mm HE rounds

into the key building which enemy infantry

is holding. That means that my men nearby die.

--Rett

[Bertram]

It can get even sillier. I had an M7 trying to hit an HMG in a house. The HMG got pinned, and the Priest lost sight of it. So they stopped shelling.

Next turn I ordered them to area fire the building the MG was hidden in. They started, but then the HMG popped up. They targeted the MG instead of the building. Of course the MG took cover again, and the Priest stopped shelling.

I had to manoeuvre the Priest somewhere where they could not see the MG to have them destroy the building, for each turn they would fire just one shell.

Bertram

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bertram:

It can get even sillier. I had an M7 trying to hit an HMG in a house. The HMG got pinned, and the Priest lost sight of it. So they stopped shelling.

Next turn I ordered them to area fire the building the MG was hidden in. They started, but then the HMG popped up. They targeted the MG instead of the building. Of course the MG took cover again, and the Priest stopped shelling.

I had to manoeuvre the Priest somewhere where they could not see the MG to have them destroy the building, for each turn they would fire just one shell.

Bertram<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BTS says that they want their game to

be intuitive; it should be possible to

play using 'real world' tactics and

get realistic results. This silly

feature of the TacAI is definitely

detrimental to that goal.

All it would take to fix this absurd

behaviour is that area fire orders are

remembered when a unit switches targets,

and that after the threat subsides the

shooter reverts to the original area

fire order. I'm surprised BTS didn't

do it like this from the get go.

--Rett

[ 07-02-2001: Message edited by: CMplayer ]

[Conscript Bagger]

But then you'd get complaints like "my Tiger stopped area firing to engage a Firefly moving on his flank, but when the Firefly went behind a house the Tiger rotated back to the original target. Five seconds later the Firefly emerges and kills my Tiger! They should have known he was coming out! BTS fix or do somefink!"

That said, crap has happened to me too, and I share your frustration.

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Offwhite:

But then you'd get complaints like "my Tiger stopped area firing to engage a Firefly moving on his flank, but when the Firefly went behind a house the Tiger rotated back to the original target. Five seconds later the Firefly emerges and kills my Tiger! They should have known he was coming out! BTS fix or do somefink!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are using your vehicles to area fire

buildings then it is your responsibility

to provide for their security. Give the

tiger a wingman and it should be okay.

Also, at present target lines aren't

immediately lost when a unit goes behind

a building like you describe.

I think that the point I bring up here is

a serious shortcoming, and worth more

consideration than the usual 'do sumfink'

blow-off.

--Rett

[Conscript Bagger]

But blowing things off is so much easier than figuring them out! I wasn't disputing the serious effect that this behavior can have on a game, but the impression I get is that the limit has been reached for the current AI. I don't know if you were around for all the hull rotation and target acquisition threads that erupted when the game was released and people played the Wittman scenarios for the first (and second and fiftieth) time, but your concern was raised by many at that time as well. Anyhow, if some additional "remembering" of targets is included in CM2, I'll be as happy as anyone - I'm just not holding my breath.

[Pak40]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Offwhite:

But then you'd get complaints like "my Tiger stopped area firing to engage a Firefly moving on his flank, but when the Firefly went behind a house the Tiger rotated back to the original target. Five seconds later the Firefly emerges and kills my Tiger! They should have known he was coming out! BTS fix or do somefink!"

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

CM targeting already accounts for this sort of occurance. If your tank has targeted a moving vehicle and it loses LOS because the vehicle goes behind a house then your tank will continue to track it for several seconds usually long enough for it to appear on the other side of the building.

[Dirtweasle]

It's anoying to give an area fire order and have it disregarded to target some poor half squad, but really it's just one of those things IMHO... on second thought maybe if there was some sort of check to see if the target of opportunity is a serious threat to the firing unit's survival if not it ought to continue to fire at the building, trees whatever.

[Conscript Bagger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pak40:

CM targeting already accounts for this sort of occurance. If your tank has targeted a moving vehicle and it loses LOS because the vehicle goes behind a house then your tank will continue to track it for several seconds usually long enough for it to appear on the other side of the building.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, "usually." Just not when I need them to.

[Binkie]

I think the original request is a good one, one that is fairly necessary in the ongoing quest to make tank commanders more humanlike.

I'm hoping for some other mission-critical commands to be added for armor at some point as well. DO NOT ENGAGE NON-AT SOFT TARGETS (which would solve the first problem), for example, or how about TRY TO ANTICIPATE COLLISIONS WITH FRIENDLY VEHICLES AND DO SOMETHING CLEVER ABOUT IT, LIKE AVOIDING THEM.

I'm serious.

[Tero]

Another Kodak moment: you plot an artillery barrage and draw 3 minute delay. The FO gets suppressed and the mission is cancelled with 15 secs on the clock. Back to 3 minute delay. Oh joy.

[Kurtz]

But how is a tank supposed to know which units are no threat to its existence?

A AT-team can be identified as "Infantry?" and most German squads carry Panzerfausts

which makes them AT-teams. The Fog of War makes most enemies a potential threat.

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tero:

Another Kodak moment: you plot an artillery barrage and draw 3 minute delay. The FO gets suppressed and the mission is cancelled with 15 secs on the clock. Back to 3 minute delay. Oh joy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Joy for the guys who were about to be

on the receiving end of that serenade

--Rett

[ 07-03-2001: Message edited by: CMplayer ]

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kurtz:

But how is a tank supposed to know which units are no threat to its existence?

A AT-team can be identified as "Infantry?" and most German squads carry Panzerfausts

which makes them AT-teams. The Fog of War makes most enemies a potential threat.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very Good Point!

An unknown (Fog of War creaping in here) infantry unit within 200 meters of your AVF should be considered a credible threat, many types of infantry in this game carry AT weapons, and at 200 meters a buttoned tank should be wary of ANY unknown infantry types, hell you know they just "could be" a REAL threat like a 'zook, piat or 'shreck, but at 200 meters through vision slit on a buttoned tank (because you have NO infantry support nearby) that tank "should" consider that unknown infantry unit a threat.

OK scenario "B": Thanks to the borg like miracle of absolute spotting, if some other infantry unit positively ID's the enemy unit in question then you as the player may can ticked that the AFV in question still reacts as though that infantry maybe a potential threat, BUT the crew of that AFV (still buttoned) should not know they have been identified as non-threatening by other friends, so the tank crew does not know (and should not Know, until you tell it) that the "unknown" infantry 200 meters out does not represent a threat and so the Tac AI acts as though it is a threat.

This is not such a bad system.

It used to be MUCH worse, it works pretty well now actually, IMHO. I think the current system punishes bad tactics and rewards players using good tactics, ( i.e. over laping fields of fire, tanks with wingmen close by, tanks supported with infantry out in front, effective use of art and smoke, that kind of thing)

-tom w

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

An unknown (Fog of War creaping in here) infantry unit within 200 meters of your AVF should be considered a credible threat, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That reminds me of the first time I

played Chance Encounter on the demo.

My stug kept targetting a zook at about

150 meters and I kept retargetting since

I 'knew' from playing CC that a bazooka

was useless at more than 80m. Next turn

that stug was lit up by guess who.

That was the first of many rough surprises...

--Rett

[ 07-03-2001: Message edited by: CMplayer ]

[Dirtweasle]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kurtz:

But how is a tank supposed to know which units are no threat to its existence?

A AT-team can be identified as "Infantry?" and most German squads carry Panzerfausts

which makes them AT-teams. The Fog of War makes most enemies a potential threat.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. It has to be realistic. So if the "target of opportunity" is *NOT* a threat, and you have given an order to area fire the firing unit ought to continue it's mission. Say the firing unit (oh lets say it's a StuH Assult gun) is 500 meters away from a treeline, and is blasting away on your manual order. Now, an unknown AFV creeps into view, and whatever the current CM method of detection occurs, well the StuH ought to react, maybe it turns it's facing and backs off, whatever it currently is supposed to do in CM in this situation. Now lets say some infantry comes into view, the StuH ought to keep area firing. This seem rather realistic to me.