Lawyer Posted March 10, 2001 Share Posted March 10, 2001 Do you play PBEM to win the match or to have a good fight with whatever units you have left on the map? Sure, we all want to win the whole match, and we all want to control whatever points we can at the last turn. But is winning the final point total more important to you than fighting to the last dead pixel with whatever units you have left on the map? I had a recent experience with a PBEM opponent that got me to thinking about why I play CM PBEM, and how I go about it. The issue involved was voluntary withdrawal of your own units to prevent your opponent from taking them. You can read the arguments pro and con at: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/017157.html Personally, I'm willing to risk losing a PBEM game in order to duke it out with any units I have left that are capable of hurting my opponent's forces, even if I can't win the overall game. I'll try to take back a flag or kill a tank or something. These mini-engagements can yield small victories that I enjoy as much as winning the whole game. I guess my sum enjoyment or distress over these small victories and losses yields my final feelings about how I fared in a PBEM match, no matter what the end score. In fact, the final score is often an anti-climax after an engrossing game. I've also found that, like all competitive games, the points scored at the end are usually more exciting than the points scored up front. As the forces dwindle, the stakes get higher. The victory is all the sweeter if you can pull it off, and the loss can be accepted by knowing that you at least tried everything you could do to hurt the enemy. My question about winning is directed at your attitude in playing the game. But when a 30-turn PBEM takes more than a month to setup and play, it also has a practical impact on your gameplaying time. It can be very disappointing to see your opponent give up on a game after you have spent two or three weeks just getting down to the bone in having a good fight. What is your attitude in playing PBEM? Fight to the last pixel, or go for the overall points to win the game? ------------------ You're never alone with a schizophrenic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted March 10, 2001 Share Posted March 10, 2001 My attitude varies depending on the situation. Sometimes, when I am being beaten down but still feel I have the men and resources to at least pull off a tie or give my opponent no more then a minor victory, I will continue playing. When I see that all I have left is a Jeep, a zook, and a few empty mortars to fight off a batallion of Axis forces, I will give up. There is no point in prolonging the inevitable. I have had a few experiences where opponents would give up half way, when they could have still fought more and got some victory points away from me. I dont appreciate it, but I can see them not wanting to waste another 2 weeks on playing a match that they feel cannot be won. Better to start another game in that case, and see if you can turn the tables. Cheers! ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francesco Posted March 10, 2001 Share Posted March 10, 2001 Actually, I'm already plaing a PBEM game. I think that the first is: fight as better as you can. This is not to win but really to make a good and interesting mach for you and your human enemy. This is imperative: make the best of yourself. I you and at the same time your enemy play at the maximum of his capacities the mach will be so great, interesting and important that you'll not take care of the final result (obviuously if it is not a 10000 to 0!) Regards, Francesco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskander Posted March 10, 2001 Share Posted March 10, 2001 Against you, Jake, winning is everything...! Now stop posting silly questions, go mix a drink or two and send your surrender.... ------------------ "I send you a kaffis of mustard seed, that you may taste and acknowledge the bitterness of my victory." "Legal advice is very often divorced from reality in my humble opinion" - BTS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted March 10, 2001 Share Posted March 10, 2001 Winning is not important at all. Why, in a "recent match-up" I inflicted twice as many casualties as I took and still lost -- and had fun too! ------------------ "Za Rodentia!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted March 10, 2001 Share Posted March 10, 2001 I don't believe there is a one size fits all to this topic. I mean I don't see where there are lines to be drawn in the sand here. Standing and fighting, surrendering, or withdrawaling, are all relevant to the moment. To me, if someone wants to duke it out to the last crew, surrender after the third move, or attempt a withdrawal on turn 10 and take their chances doesn't make any difference at all to me. I play to have fun, not so much to win. A guy wants to pull a withdrawal on me, fine go right ahead and take your chances that I might cut it to pieces before it can be accomplished. If an opponent surrenders because they view things as hopeless, that is fine also. I might not have in their shoes, but the point is I wasn't in their shoes. And I can look forward to a new game, (I won that one). If they want to slug it out toe to toe, that is just fine also. I guess I don't really see what is controversial about something that is very dependent upon any given moment in any given game. Even though I too generally fight it out, though I have tossed in the towel when all was lost early. I've had a couple debacles early on where it was really worthless to continue on. I don't disagree with any of the lines of thought here, excepting that to me no single philosophy is going to apply all the time. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 03-10-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted March 10, 2001 Share Posted March 10, 2001 I agree with the Commisar. I do not panic if I say, loose all my armor, and am in decent terrain. But sometimes leaving units on the map is only a good way to get them killed. In one game I finished today, I was getting wiped, and there was no way to stop it, so I pulled two whole intact platoons of mechanized infantry off of the map before my opponets PSW 234/1s could hunt them down. WWB ------------------ Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say, Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager 7 Posted March 10, 2001 Share Posted March 10, 2001 In PBEM: Rule 1 - Never surrender! Rule 2 - If you can't achieve a total victory then fight for the major victory. Rule 3 - if you can't get the major victory then struggle for the tactical victory. Rule 4 - if you can't get the tactical, then go for the draw. Rule 5 - if you can't get the draw then fight so your opponent doesn't get anything more than a tactical victory. Rule 6 - Never surrender! I think everyone likes winning, but the quality and challenge of the good fight is the most important to me. If I go by the ideas above I may not win..but I always have a good game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted March 10, 2001 Share Posted March 10, 2001 Winning matters little to me. Of course, the rare victory is savored but it's not the be-all and end-all of playing. I enjoy the tactics and strategy, the fighting a good fight regardless of outcome and pulling a surprise move or two -- a well-executed ambush, for example -- that causes my opponent to step back and give a "well done." This, of course, is a good attitude to have when your record is something like 1-14-2 in the 'pool. But I also enjoy playing against top players. I am currently at or near the bottom of the RD and TH ladders because I generally don't post my victories but always offer it up to my opponent to post his (or hers) if they're into that sort of thing. Regarding the tactical retreat off the map, I don't necessarily consider it gamey. If all is lost and your forces are so depleted that there is nothing left to fight with, I'll consider moving them off the board for two reasons: first, even though these are digital people, I would opt to save as many lives as possible in a hopeless situation; second, it could possibly prevent me from claiming the ignominious title of being beaten by a score lower than 98-2. Now, disappearing from the game because you're being trounced most definitely is gamey and cheap and rotten. In truth, I most often will give my opponent the option of accepting my surrender or chasing my units around until the AI calls it quits. The only game I surrendered probably a couple turns prematurely was in a tank fight against Kitty. I had 3 M4s left (all 75mm and no AT capability in my infantry -- a recon platoon in jeeps) against a composite force of at least a dozen Panthers, Tigers, 2 KTs and a sprinkling of PzIVs. I think that still could be defined as hopeless. All that said, I will play out any game as long as possible. ------------------ "Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change." -- Oddball "Crap." -- Moriarty [This message has been edited by Moriarty (edited 03-10-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Williams Posted March 10, 2001 Share Posted March 10, 2001 Do I play PBEM to win? Don't know, I've never won one. I've only finished two PBEMs and I lost both. Badly. Now I've got two more going. One is almost over. I'm losing again. At least I'm consistent. I can beat the AI most of the time, so I guess I'm just outclassed by my human opponents so far (Erik Astrup and Robert Olesen). Hey! Who's the worst player on the board? How about a game? -Doug "The Loser" Williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alla_keefek Posted March 10, 2001 Share Posted March 10, 2001 Play to win. Yes. But if you cant win play fair. Play so that you may learn something from the other player. MOST of all play to enjoy. Yes I did enjoy MKIV beating me last week. I also learnt heaps from him. Playing two other guys at present. Beat one yesterday. But he really made me work for it. He also hood winked me with a 251 that was showing up as "light tank". This caused me to keep my Stuart back as I didnt want 20mm shells hitting it. But my zook guy from a first floor window got a look at it and saw that it was a 251. So it was onwards to victory. I was really expecting to get beaten. This match, John. ------------------ "Alla Keefek" is a Brit soldier's corruption of an Arabic phrase. It means "couldn't be bothered". A Firefly of the 4th County of London Yeomanry had it painted on the rear of the turret. This Firefly was knocked out by a Tiger from 501st SS. http://www.geocities.com/alla_keefek/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Bates Posted March 10, 2001 Share Posted March 10, 2001 If I lose at PBEM then I drown about half a dozen kittens in a bucket of rainwater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 Priority #1 - use historically believable forces in realistic ways Priority #2 - preserve my force Priority #3 - kill the enemy Priority #4 - fufill the mission objectives stated in the briefing, in my own sense of things Priority #5 - win the game, according to CM victory calculations Nowhere - provide interesting "splatter" movies to psychopathetic strangers. One man's opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tailz Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 Originally posted by M. Bates: If I lose at PBEM then I drown about half a dozen kittens in a bucket of rainwater. ROFLMAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamsters Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 Germanboy and I had a battle and he surrendered quite quickly and said that in RL, he would have fallen back and attacked under better conditions, with arty support, et cetera. I don't think this is a legitimate argument, given the rules of CM. Because of the isolation of these battles, you cannot look at it from an everyday battle perspective, that's not what an everyday battle is like. There's no retreat, no evacuation and no second chance tomorrow, it's one hoary fight for the fate of the entire war. Granted, I've won the entire war only marginally more than I've lost it but we cannot look at it any other way. CM doesn't model any consequences beyond this battle, so to act like it does is to pretend that CM is more than it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tailz Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 Originally posted by Hamsters: Germanboy and I had a battle and he surrendered quite quickly and said that in RL, he would have fallen back and attacked under better conditions, with arty support, et cetera. I don't think this is a legitimate argument, given the rules of CM. Because of the isolation of these battles, you cannot look at it from an everyday battle perspective, that's not what an everyday battle is like. There's no retreat, no evacuation and no second chance tomorrow, it's one hoary fight for the fate of the entire war. Agreed... As a Company or Battalion CO, you're basically told H-Hour is 0600, your objective is the town, and you have such and such support. Give'em Hell Son!! You'd only go back to Brigade HQ once saying "I decided to fall back and wait for more arty, CAS, better weather, more troops" before you'd find yourself skippering the chowline at a replacement depot. Take what you got and do the job... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawyer Posted March 11, 2001 Author Share Posted March 11, 2001 Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net: Nowhere - provide interesting "splatter" movies to psychopathetic strangers. One man's opinion... Your attempt at an insult is as boring as your gameplan. Why not go back to reading "Supply Depot Management in WWII" if you can't be civil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morten Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 I have been playing wargames both board and PC games, in 20 years and I have lost about 75% of them! Well I am not bragging about it - but there it is. If I was in this, to win I would have stopped long ago. The fun of this hobby, be it ASL/other wargames or PbEM wargaming, is to find people who you like to play a game with (can one say that with out it sounds the wrong way?) that you can thrust mailing their turn and not quiting! I have played a fair number of games in Talonsofts ACW battle series for some years now with the same guy ( and I wrote him " try CM it's one hell of a wargame - You know what? we stopped playing ACW because he liked this game so much) Any way if he would have instited to play ACW - I would have! The importent thing here is not winning (thu it IS nice) but if one find a person you can relate to somehow or another it is a victory in itself. I like this game (CM that is:)) because it makes you "smell the battle field" just like ASL did, to me, back in the early '80'es. I say "allways remember this is a game - and it just for fun and not real life-luckily BTW - I am game for just one more PbEM battle! Being a family man with just that much time left for gaming, I can only play tree or four games at at time. Mail me! Kind regards Morten Lundsteen Copenhagen - Denmark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 It wasn't an attempt at an insult. Some people may enjoy providing interesting splatter movies to psychopathetic strangers. After all, first-person-shooters sell very well, including multiplayer versions. As you managed to gather, that is not my cup of tea. It is obviously some people's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kelly Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 I have a dear friend in Shanghai and I love to play by email or over the internet with him. The outcome of the game is unimportant. Yet I also play on a team with this friend and I place a tremendous amount of pressure on myself to...what else, win! Yes, win at all cost. I will accept a surrender and if I am beaten, I will surrender. When I play competively, my attitude is totally different. With the arrival of each file, my heart beats a little faster and my palms begin to sweat. The anticipation of a tank duel is quite nerve racking, but when my tank wins, it's euphoric. My wife doesn't understand it, but I'm just a competitor. Therefore, when I play for fun without the RD ladder involved, it's much more enjoyable. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 Originally posted by Hamsters: Germanboy and I had a battle and he surrendered quite quickly and said that in RL, he would have fallen back and attacked under better conditions, with arty support, et cetera. I don't think this is a legitimate argument, given the rules of CM. Because of the isolation of these battles, you cannot look at it from an everyday battle perspective, that's not what an everyday battle is like. There's no retreat, no evacuation and no second chance tomorrow, it's one hoary fight for the fate of the entire war. Granted, I've won the entire war only marginally more than I've lost it but we cannot look at it any other way. CM doesn't model any consequences beyond this battle, so to act like it does is to pretend that CM is more than it is. Yes well, I surrendered, which within the realms of CM gave you a total victory. What else do you want? Maybe you should also mention the rest of the story: namely that my units were panicking left right and centre, and I had NOTHING to do any forward movement with. What do you expect? That I play it out until my last man dies or routs for your personal pleasure? I have more important things to do in my life than to please you. When a battle is over it is over - this one was. If I feel there is nothing left to do I surrender, unless it is an interesting battle for some other reason (e.g. Hell's Highway against Lorak) where I got thoroughly trounced, but enjoyed it because it was a scary recreation of what it may have been like to go towards Arnhem. In the battle against Hamsters I faced a totally gamey force, so why would I continue after I lost? ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 As one of your regular opponents, Jake, I'll offer a few thoughts on this topic. Do I play to win? Sure, but it's not my all-encompassing goal. If that were my goal, I'd just play the AI, since I have a much better chance of beating Hal! LOL! My primary goal of PBEMs is to have fun, swap some good jokes, and try to play my best while doing so. If I happen to win while playing, then great, if not, no big deal. Chalk it up as another lesson on my now-infamous impatience. I appreciate a good move on my opponents' part as much as I do my own moves (One of my opponents has a history of humiliating my forces with ripped up, smaller units...amazing how he pulls them together.) I'll usually play to the end, even if I can't win. If I can still cause damage or slow down my enemy with some ambushes, artillery, or potshots, I'll do so. If I can't even manage this, I won't bore my opponent with non-turns (IE I have no orders, because all of my men are panicked and crying for mommy). I'll continue to play under even these circumstances if I know that my opponent is NOT bored yet... To date, I've only surrendered once that I can recall. In short, my favorite opponents are those that can exchange some witty banter along with some good gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 BTW Hamsters - I don't like to see my name dragged in here with some half-truths, if you don't mind. Pretty low style on your part. Maybe next time you either want to tell the full story, or just don't mention any names. That way I won't have to mention that you are indeed a gamey player. Have a nice day. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamsters Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 I'm sorry, Andreas, I never meant to impugn your playing ability. My point is only that the purpose of this game is to win, not kill the most troops and not keep the most of your troops alive, even though those are often facets of winning. This does not mean that one should only by SMG squads and KTs, because it is both unrealistic and boring, conversely, though, you cannot curse about gaminess in troop selection and then implement gaminess in tactical doctrine. In real life, given a situation where it is imperative that you take a position and you suffer heavy casualties, would you have surrendered all your forces? No, as this is both unrealistic and boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamsters Posted March 11, 2001 Share Posted March 11, 2001 Originally posted by Germanboy: BTW Hamsters - I don't like to see my name dragged in here with some half-truths, if you don't mind. Pretty low style on your part. Maybe next time you either want to tell the full story, or just don't mention any names. That way I won't have to mention that you are indeed a gamey player. Have a nice day. Don't be so sensitive, it was merely an example. I myself surrendered to Shandorf on the second turn when I was too pissed off at seeing two of my tanks whacked in what I felt were unacceptable ways. And as to your jibe that I'm a gamey player, that's just silly, Andreas, as any number of my opponents will attest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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