Range of Panzerfaust

[Gunny Bunny]

Hello,

What is the expected range of a Panzerfaust ??

How close does the armour have to get to be effective ??

How many Panzerfausts are there per unit ??

How many shots do I get, let's say per unit that carries one.

Thx

[This message has been edited by Gunny Bunny (edited 03-12-2001).]

[Shadow 1st Hussars]

The range is the faust #. ie. Panzerfaust 30 would have a range of 30m

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shadow@jagdtiger.de

Canada For CM

I AM CANADIAN!

Eh?

[Guest Solid Snake]

Well theres different kinds of panzerfausts

the P-30 P-60 and P-100

all have different ranges

[LimShady]

Are the 'faust designations (i.e. -30, -60, -100) the maximum range or effective range? I was under the impression that for optimum kills it was less than advertised.

LimShady

[John Kelly]

With the panzerfaust, you must be very close (15-25m)or the squad will not fire it. On the other hand, the panzerschreck can make shots from close to 200 meters, although a hit is a rare occurance at that range. The warhead is commonly referred to as HEAT (high explosive anti-tank). It is a shaped charge that shoots a molten jet steam as it strikes the target. Side skirts were used to defeat this ammunition. It is not subject to range deviations as with solid shot. Therefore, the penetration value remains reasonably constant.

[alla_keefek]

For all your Faust needs... http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust.htm

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"Alla Keefek" is a Brit soldier's corruption of an Arabic phrase. It

means "couldn't be bothered". A Firefly of the 4th County of London Yeomanry had it painted on the rear of the turret. This Firefly was knocked out by a Tiger from 501st SS.

http://www.geocities.com/alla_keefek/

[Maximus]

Originally posted by Gunny Bunny:

What is the expected range of a Panzerfaust ??

Panzerfaust 30 = 30m, ect.

How close does the armour have to get to be effective ??

Panzerfausts are shaped charges, therefore they are effective at any range.

How many Panzerfausts are there per unit ??

Depends, how many panzerfausts are shown in their info box?

How many shots do I get, let's say per unit that carries one.

Um, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, "um ONE!"

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[rexford]

John Salt site ending in salt5 has data on panzerfaust accuarcy at various ranges, which might be helpful and of interest.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Each faust symbol on your units is one weapon. It can fire once, then it is gone. You will get 0-2 per squad, with the number expected varying with the date. 4-5 per platoon is typical in later '44 or early '45. More like 3 earlier, in Normandy.

The fausts are 3 types, 30, 60, and 100, which is their "headline" (or "rating"), maximum range. But the troops will not fire them at ranges that far. A better rule of thumb is to regard the true engagement range as around half of those figures. Within 1/3rd of the range "rating", the chances the squad will fire the weapon are high, as are the hit chances. As you can see, the early faust-30 versions are essentially close-combat weapons. The others are effective at about the range of a grenade.

They are also more likely to fire if unsuppressed, at an armored target threatening to them, and if they have 2 faust so they can "spare" one. If you use their platoon HQ to set an ambush marker, that can also increase their likelihood to fire, in my experience anyway. But do not set it too far or it will not do any good.

For comparison, panzerscreck have 5 shots, and their rated maximum range is around 225 yards. They will essentially never hit at that range, though, so it is a waste of ammo to fire so far away. It also gives away their location. A better range for a 'schreck is around 50 yards. Anything beyond ~80 yards, the chance of a hit is low.

The schreck thus doesn't need to get as close. But on the flip side, it is a vunerable 2-man team, and like all AT teams tends to draw fire, and it is not as fast as a squad for long moves.

For these German weapons, they will usually kill anything they hit. Churchills and Sherman Jumbos are about the only exceptions; side angles may be useful against those beasties. There is always some randomness, from the angle the warhead hits the target, so an occasional "non-kill" has to be expected. But those are rare.

The difficulty is "connecting", which is mostly a function of range. Which in turn usually depends on surprise, "stalking" from inside cover, or on a short rush, when the squad or team can avoid being suppressed long enough to fire.

I hope this helps.

[JoePrivate]

A general rule of thumb for faust range would be about half their designation, so PF30 - 15, PF60 - 30 etc. Though I remember a squad firing its faust100 at a Sherman at around 80m, much to my opponent's and my suprise. They will usually KO what they hit but not always, there's no guarantee.

I don't agree at all with the 50m range for the shreck. Obviously closer is optimal but a vet shreck team has a better than good chance of scoring a hit at around 100-150m. I have seen them regularly get hits after 2 or 3 shots at that range. Everyone has different experiences I guess.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Well, vets and after 2-3 shots. My experience is that you want the first shot to kill the target, because otherwise it has an excellent chance of killing you before you hit it. It will also tend to back up. So I'd much rather fire at 50 yards.

At 100 yards, I think I am exposing the team for a low chance of a hit, with a high chance they burn their ammo without killing the target, or get KO'ed themselves. Have I sometimes ordered schrecks to fire away at 100 yards? Yes, when desperate enough. But it is not something to make a standard practice out of, IMO.

[JoePrivate]

Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net:

Well, vets and after 2-3 shots. My experience is that you want the first shot to kill the target, because otherwise it has an excellent chance of killing you before you hit it. It will also tend to back up. So I'd much rather fire at 50 yards.

At 100 yards, I think I am exposing the team for a low chance of a hit, with a high chance they burn their ammo without killing the target, or get KO'ed themselves. Have I sometimes ordered schrecks to fire away at 100 yards? Yes, when desperate enough. But it is not something to make a standard practice out of, IMO.

Sure, getting the first shot in would be ideal and firing from 50m or less would definitely help. However waiting for that sub-50m shot could be likened to waiting for hell to freeze over in many cases, it probably ain't gonna happen.

Depending on how the shreck is deployed and when it opens up, it *should* be able to get two shots off before being spotted. That's something I count on anyway. Also IIRC, the hit chance around 100m is close to 45-50%, not exactly low in my book. Just my thoughts...

[Zakalwe]

My schreck team (veteran) just took out a moving Wasp at 192 meters... First time I've seen a hit at more than 150m. So these shots are possible, if very unlikely.

[Hawkmek]

I had a GREEN schreck take out my Stuart at 199 meters last night. Stuart was stationary though. Couse you know, if I would have been playing the Germans, he would have missed that one in a million shot!

[Fenris]

In addition to all the above....

Getting the target tanks buttoned up is also very handy when engaging with Faust's and Schreck's. They are alot less likely to see your schreck teams fire if they're buttoned up due to small arms fire. This keeps the AT team alive long enough to get in additional shots...if required.

Reg's

Fen

[Tiger]

A good book for those intrested is "Tank Killers, History of the Tank destruction Badge" by Thomas Breyette & Roger James Bender.

Mostly a history of the TDB itself as well as a chapter on noteable receipients and a chapter on the weapons themselves. Not alot of scientific data but intresting nonetheless.

"Introduced in early 1944, the Panzerfaust 60m was probably the most effective of the Panzerfaust models, which included the 30 Km, 30m, 60m, 100m, and the 150m. The number 60m means the fighting range in meters"

It also mentions the other anti-tank weapons such as the Magnetic Anti-Tank Charge,

AT rifle grenades,

AT rifles,

the Tank Hand Mine 3,

the Stick Grenade/Steilhabdgranate STG 39 (stick hand grenade with 6 gernade heads attached in a circular pattern around the center one (like a big flower),

the Stick Hand Grenade attached to a jerrycan of fuel (to toss on the rear engine compartment),

the Egg Grenade/Eihandgranate 39 (like the Steilhandgranate STG 39 except using 6 egg-shaped grenades attached to a stick grenade,

the Glass Smoke Grenade 1H & 2H/Blendkorper 1H und 2H. This covers the hull of the target with a smoke-producing agent which effectively blinds the tank, allowing for the tank-hunting team to get closer.

My favorite the Smoke Stick Grenade 39/Nebelhandgranate 39. Two smoke stick grenades attached together with a tether ala a bola. Swung at the tank's gun barrel to wrap around it and produce smoke, blinding the crew.

the 8.8cm Raketenpanzerbuchse 43 and 54 (Panzerschreck) At rocket launcher. Effective range 150 meters. The model 54 introduced a shield and carrying strap for the firer.

the Tellermine 35 (T-35). Used as a buried AT mine and also could be used with a timer and thrown or placed on/under a tank's hull or under the turrent ring.

the Panzerwurfmine 1 kurz. Essentially thrown at the target like a lawn dart. Said to be used to good effect. It looks like a lawn-dart version of the panzerfaust.

the Sturmpistole. An assault pistol with a miniature panzerfaust-looking warhead attached to the pistol-end.

the Molotov-Cocktail.

Tiger

[This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 03-13-2001).]

[JessRobinson]

In a recent PBEM I had a Pershing destroyed by a regular schreck team at 180+ meters. (Aargh!) The Pershing was moving in hunt mode at the time.

[Hawkmek]

Here's the pic of my unlucky Stuart about to die at the hands of Schultz.

[Paul Lakowski]

Originally posted by Tiger:

A good book for those intrested is "Tank Killers, History of the Tank destruction Badge" by Thomas Breyette & Roger James Bender.

Mostly a history of the TDB itself as well as a chapter on noteable receipients and a chapter on the weapons themselves. Not alot of scientific data but intresting nonetheless.

"Introduced in early 1944, the Panzerfaust 60m was probably the most effective of the Panzerfaust models, which included the 30 Km, 30m, 60m, 100m, and the 150m. The number 60m means the fighting range in meters"

Tiger

Sounds like a good book to get, I read that the effective range of the PzFausts was equal to about 60-80% hit probablity on the test range, after this the accuracy drops off rapidly to 25%. The maximum range was usually more than twice the effective range ...on a test range, so hits are possible but not likely then.

I looked at PzFausts prodcution and its unlikely that a platoon had more than 2-3 Pzfaust or 1 per suad. By late 44 they might have as many as 6-8 per platoon or 2 per squad.

In early 45 the figure is more like 20 per platoon or about 5 per squad.

[This message has been edited by Paul Lakowski (edited 03-14-2001).]

[:USERNAME:]

In a recent thread BTS said it would consider changes to the handling of PF use. I suggested that extending the range of the fausts should be modeled beyond the 30/60/100 numbers 5-10 meters. This reflects the infantrymans ability to quickly make a short burst to a better/closer firing position. An alternative is to measure the range from the area the squad/unit could occupy. These werent fixed 88s but man mobile weapons.

Personally, I find the 30 model to be useless in the present game. The omnispotting buttoned up tanks dont help.

Lewis

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Don't go urging revisions that makes them too effective. The highest estimates of tanks KO'ed by all the infantry weapons in the German arsenal in the whole war, is around 16,000. And they deployed millions of these things. The effectiveness per weapon had to be on the order of 1/500 of so, not more. And the reason is obviously range. PAK were less common by a factor of more than 100, but got many times the kills. And that wasn't caused by any great disparity in hitting power if they did connect (perhaps the reverse, really).

[Paul Lakowski]

Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net:

Don't go urging revisions that makes them too effective. The highest estimates of tanks KO'ed by all the infantry weapons in the German arsenal in the whole war, is around 16,000. And they deployed millions of these things. The effectiveness per weapon had to be on the order of 1/500 of so, not more. And the reason is obviously range. PAK were less common by a factor of more than 100, but got many times the kills. And that wasn't caused by any great disparity in hitting power if they did connect (perhaps the reverse, really).

I don't agree with your analysis here Jason, lets look at Rifle fired Grenades as an example. Historically 24 million AT Rifle fired Grenades were maunfactured between early 1942 and early 1944. There were 130 infantry divisions and 20 motorized Divisions and 28 Panzer Divisions at the fronts during 1942 , while in 1943 the figures where 150 infantry 22 motorized and 34 Panzer Divisions.

Thats roughly 1180 infantry battalions in 1942 and 1380 in 1943. If each battlion has 3 line companies each with 9 rifle grenade launchers as per TOE, then thats ~ 69120 Launchers over two years of combat or about 347 AT grenades manufacture for each Rifle Grenade launcher per year or about 1 x AT grenade fired a day.

In reality each infantry squad won't be in battle every day infact it looks like any battalion in a battle zone spends about 1/3 of the time fighting and the rest advancing or retreatinfg and regrouping.In truth this would be more like one week in combat one and two weeks moving and regrouping.

The above dosn't include divisions not in combat that would still have to be equipped with this weapon in order for it to be 'standardized'.

As a rule the standard TOE for that weapon was only 5 AT grenades issued per launcher. If we look at the PzFaust production millions were produced , yes but atleast a couple of million in the last coule of months of the war. In 1944 there were only a few of million produced when the numbers needed where > 10 million , just to get the frequency of the level of the AT Rifle grenade.

As to accuracy I bet alot of these weapons were fired even if they were out side effective range and I bet alot of the targets were't always tanks.A large number of Tractors Half Tracks and trucks and Armored cars were destroyed.

If you look at the production of AT ammo for tank guns it was in the 10s of millions per gun and the load out was supposed to be 50-50 AT HE .

[M. Bates]

Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net:

The effectiveness per weapon had to be on the order of 1/500 of so, not more.

Um why? Any weapon with that effectiveness would be trashed or given to the French.

[Gunny Bunny]

Thx for all your input fellows, you were great !!

GB

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Paul, I wish you would specify what propositions of mine you are disputing, and what ones you are putting in their place. That infantry AT weapons killed 16000 AFVs or less? That PAK killed many times that, while being less common? That faust effectiveness was on the order of 1/500, in terms of kills per deployed weapon?

We can deduce that the average German *division*, not battalion, did not kill a tank on the average day - although it was close to that (1), and with "re-kills" it might have equaled that, without exceeding it appreciably.

From Barbarossa to the fall of Berlin is 1425 days. There were ~170 divisions engaged, more later after the western fronts opened. 1425 x 170 = 242,250 "division-days". Total Allied AFV production was not more than 210,000. There were larger fleets of Allied AFVs remaining at the end of the war, than had been present at the begining. Ergo, the average AFV kill per day, per division, was less than 1. Or if every AFV was killed twice over, was less than 2.

And we now that AFVs were lost in the hundreds per day in particular intense battles, sometimes falling to a single corps. Since the average is low, and the peaks are contributing a high portion of that average, the kill-per-day elsewhere was slender indeed. Mostly because the average division on the average day probably didn't fight seriously at all, beside patroling and occasional shellfire. And those that were in heavy action, were usually infantry divisions in heavy action against attacking infantry divisions, and their supporting artillery.

I realise that it would be more convenient for claims that every weapon was superbly effective and every soldier an ancestor of Rambo in his use thereof, if every dead Allied AFV were given out as a credit 100 times over. But one really cannot lose 100 times as many tanks as one built, and be left with more afterward than one started with.

Incidentally, the German figure for AFVs KO'ed by all infantry AT weapons is 14,000. It is possible this is low, say by a factor of two just to be absurdly generous - perhaps KOs by men who were overrun, say, so the Germans knew nothing about it. It makes no big difference in the conclusion. You can kill twice as many as the Germans claim and the kills per deployed weapon are still going to be around 1/250.

Everyone endlessly repeats the assertion that so many weren't used because they were still around at the end of the war. Yes, 3 million fausts were on hand in March of 1945. 4.4 million others had been built previously, issued to troops, not returned as defective, and were no longer on hand at that date. The Germans also produced 1.8 million schreck rounds (defects excluded) and 290,000 launchers, 1.2 million hand AT mines, 1.45 million rifle grenade launchers and used up 18.3 million AT type rifle grenades (they made another ~5 million).

25 million infantry AT weapons were issued, and ~14,000 tanks were KO'ed. Undoubtedly, the principle reason that use against targets besides tanks, mostly building rather than vehicles of any kind. The rifle grenades were probably ineffective against many AFV types, too. Some of the weapons were probably lost to overruns, or their would-be users were hit before they could use them and they were abandoned on the field or captured. And when they were used against armor, they were probably fired often at long range, where the accuracy was low.

Each of these can be a large factor, 3-5 times, meaning only 20-33% of the weapons on the "good side" of each item, in succession. Together, they will multiply out to the 1/300-500 range for the better of the weapons involved.

If you only want to count the launchers, and if you want to ignore the hand mines as inadequate in range, then you still get 50 times as many of these things as PAK and heavy FLAK and all gun-armed AFVs combined. But they accounted for something on the order of 10% of Allied AFVs, plus or minus a few percent. 21 million AT mines accounted for another fraction. 2/3rds to 4/5ths were accounted for by the less numerous weapons with far greater range.

Yes, the PAK have numerous rounds. For the 75mm towed PAK varities, there are around 160 AP and 140 HEAT rounds built per piece. The effectiveness per round of these may be on the same order of magnitude as the infantry weapons. But the "launchers" here are averaging around 1 KO'ed tank apiece (if you assign ~1/2 the dead AFVs to German AFVs, and some to mines, etc), which is not remotely the case with the fausts. Why the difference? To me it is obvious - range, leading to more shots taken and from greater safety.

For what it is worth.