Shatter Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 I have been a history channel watcher for a while, and I keep seeing a allied tank(actually US produced) without main gun in turret. It looks to have a 75mm gun on the right able to move left to right slightly. Also has maybe a 37mm simply mounted higher up, maybe in a turret. I can not tell if the smaller gun is in a turret or not. I have seen these tanks before, but have not heard much about them. It was produced by the US. I was wondering if any of these tanks made it to action. I figured the US dropped the design, once the M4 hit production, due to its turret. I was just wondering if anyone had some info on this tank. I thought the Jumbos were ugly but these tanks take the prize. If all you have to say is: USE THE SEARCH, don't bother because I already have. [This message has been edited by Shatter (edited 02-23-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tailz Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 M3 Lee... some on lend-lease to Britain, saw action in North Africa. (hmmm... did they ever get returned to the Yanks??) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shatter Posted February 23, 2001 Author Share Posted February 23, 2001 Originally posted by tailz: M3 Lee... some on lend-lease to Britain, saw action in North Africa. (hmmm... did they ever get returned to the Yanks??) So the US built the M3 Lee and never used it??? I would think they would have at least seen some action by US troops. So did the US just junk the remaining M3 Lee's they did not lease out or turn them into M4's??? Thanks for the info [This message has been edited by Shatter (edited 02-23-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PawBroon Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 Here goes. I wouldn't be too harsh on that one since it's looking so much as our own french design... Nuff said! ------------------ You are not Obsessive-CMpulsive, you are Allied-Retentive. Mark IV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shatter Posted February 23, 2001 Author Share Posted February 23, 2001 Originally posted by PawBroon: Here goes. I wouldn't be too harsh on that one since it's looking so much as our own french design... Nuff said! No offense to any nationalities was intended. I am a German American one grandfather US navy and the other Grandfather German infantry (Heer). Grandfather moved to US in 1954. My point is almost every tank besides the German tanks in WWII were all ugly except the Pershings. The Sherman variants simply looked like a turret set on top of a huge ugly armored chassis with trends. Although the Tigers look a turret on top of a armored box. I suppose it boils down to combat effectiveness and not how they look. Strange the Panthers are the best looking in my oppinion and were one of the best battle proven tanks in WWII. I still would like to know if any US troops saw combat with the M3 LEE, when where and any other info would be appreciated. [This message has been edited by Shatter (edited 02-23-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sturmtiger101 Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 Originally posted by Shatter: So the US built the M3 Lee and never used it??? I would think they would have at least seen some action by US troops. So did the US just junk the remaining M3 Lee's they did not lease out or turn them into M4's??? Thanks for the info Hey, the M3 medium tank did see active combat service with the US 1st Armored Div in Tunisia, North Africa, 1943. The British variant was known as the M3 Grant with modifications to the turret and interior fittings, i. e. ammo bins, radio equip. and modified commanders cupola. The Grant first saw action in Egypt at the battle of Gazala or Knightsbridge, as the operation was named, in fall of 1942. Both M3 types mounted a short 75 mm atg in a lower right side sponson and a 37 mm atg in a fully rotating turret. Early models of both had riveted hulls, later ones had cast. Both types were withdrawn at the end of the North African campaign as the Sherman became available in ever increasing quantity. The M3 series was only ever seen as a stop-gap weapon by both the US Army and The Royal Army to be used until better medium tanks could be developed. The M3 tanks did continue to soldier on until the end of the war being employed in the China-Burma-India ( CBI ) theater where their gun and armour was more than a match for any Imperial Japanese Army tank likely to be encountered. Cheers, E Tuggle [This message has been edited by Shatter (edited 02-23-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 Shatter, The tank you're describing is the M-3 Grant/Lee. The British got the Grant, which lacked the small MG turret on the U.S. Lee. I believe the British tank also had a modified 37mm turret to accommodate the radio. The gun is the same 37mm Stuarts have in CM. The other gun is a sponson mounted, limited traverse 75 mm which is, I think, identical to what the Sherman 75s have. The odd configuration was occasioned by difficulties getting a complex cast turret fabricated in time. The need for improved tank firepower was so great that the Grant/Lee was rushed into production as a stopgap. The TC was in charge of the tank and was gunner for the 37mm as well. The 37mm may be something of a popgun in CM, but in 1942 could do considerable damage to many common targets and could kill any tank from the flank or rear. The high silhouette from the positioning of the 75 mm caused real problems getting hulldown, but the gun was quite potent for the period (Grant debuted at Gazala in June 1942), outranged the short 75 mm you know from halftrack and armored cars in CM, plus all the short 50 mm equipped Mark IIIs, being eclipsed only by the scarce Mark IV F2 (Mark IV Special). That and Mark III Js (long 50 mm) were the major threats, with the latter really needing PzGr 40 (tungsten) to get frontal kills at useful ranges. For the period, the Grant/Lee was quite well armored. "Sahara" (starring Humphrey Bogart) is a great look at this tank and a pretty good movie, too. What the British really liked about this beast was its big HE wallop. British tanks, you see, mainly had 2 pdrs (40 mm) guns, plus a few 6 pdrs (57 mm) on late model Crusaders. Neither had HE. The Grant was much better able to deal with troublesome targets like dug-in infantry; antitank guns, including the 88; softskins and light armor, plus could really put the hurts tanks by wrecking running gear, setting the tank on fire, etc. Time for a grog anecdote. Early combat reports indicated two ammo problems. The first was that 75 mm HE shells wouldn't detonate if they hit at an angle. The second was that American supplied 75 mm AP simply wasn't as good as its German counterparts. Enter young American Army Captain G.B. Jarrett who was ammo advisor to British GHQ in Egypt. He remembered, being a huge ordnance collecting grog himself, that the French 75 mm ammo had graze action fuzes which matched the U.S. fuze thread pattern, and that the nearest French garrison was in Syria. A few thousand fuzes later he had the Order of the British Empire to show for his cleverness. His second solution was both brilliant and scary. He took a stock of captured German 75 mm AP shells (delay fuzes) and with an Aussie ammo expert pulled the shells from their cases. The cases were emptied into oil drums, and the propellant carefully stirred. The same thing was done with a batch of American AP, but everything except the primed cartridge brass was pitched. Now the exciting part! The German shells wouldn't fit our cartridge brass because the driving bands were too wide, so he machined them down by chucking the live shells into a lathe. Spinning arms shell fuzes, remember? Ticklish business! The remachined projectiles were then fitted to our cartridge brass, in which German propellant replaced ours, and crimped. The result? AP ammo as good as the Germans'! Why'd we pitch the U.S. projectiles? Simple. They broke up ("shatter gap") on face hardened German armor. For more on that, see rexford's posts. The guy who did these amazing/crazy things was ultimately the father of the Aberdeen Proving Ground Museum collection. Finally, though most believe this tank had been withdrawn from service by D-Day, with most converted to armored recovery vehicles and such, but I have seen History Channel footage which unambiguously showed fully intact Lees at Normandy. Hope this answers your questions. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shatter Posted February 23, 2001 Author Share Posted February 23, 2001 Thanks for all the informative info. If anyone has anything to add I sure would like to hear from you. I am always trying to increase my WWII knowledge. In a way I believe I am honoring both of my late grandfathers by learning more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shatter Posted February 23, 2001 Author Share Posted February 23, 2001 Thanks John Kettler I was posting as I got you post, one last question what are the armor ratings on the M3 if anyone knows???? I like learning new things about WWII, I guess because as a boy both my grandfathers would take me to numerous WWII museums and WWII airshows, but I was too young to really appreciate the knowledge they were passing to me. I have always regreted that. Now I wish to continue what they tried to pass on to me years ago. Actually my fondest memory is when Grandpa and a War buddy (whose name I can not remember) persuaded one of the B-17 pilots to let me sit in the Ball Turret after the show. I can still remember this day like it was just yesterday. Yes I still remember their personal tales of the war. With all the great members I have learned a great deal since last Aug when I joined all of you as Shatter50 then changed to Shatter. Anyways I just want to throw out a THANKYOU to all the members for all the informative info as well as BTS for making the best game ever. Grandfather Baugher and Grandfather Suriowic I wish we had one more day. I will honor the knowledge and pass it on to your Great Grandson. I love both of you and both of you are always in my thoughts. Your Grandson Brett Note last paragraph is of a personal nature. Every once and again I like to do this for my Grandfathers who risk their lives for a greater cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 The Grants/Lees which were in Normandy were variants, not gun tanks. With the gun removed they made a nice, roomy OP Tank. There was also a CDL Coast Defence Light version, which mounted a heavy searchlight. These were used in various engagements in Europe to provide illumination. One of the US Armored Divisions (1st?) gave its Shermans to the British for use at Alamein and went into North Africa in their Lees instead. For a good laugh, rent the movie "Sahara" with Humphrey Bogart for a romp in the desert with an M3 Lee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 tailz wrote: M3 Lee... some on lend-lease to Britain, saw action in North Africa. And Soviet Union. One Soviet M3 was destroyed at Vuosalmi, Karelian Isthmus on July '44. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LimShady Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 Originally posted by tss: tailz wrote: M3 Lee... some on lend-lease to Britain, saw action in North Africa. And Soviet Union. One Soviet M3 was destroyed at Vuosalmi, Karelian Isthmus on July '44. - Tommi And they weren't too impressed by it, the Russian nickname was a "Grave for Seven Brothers." LimShady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikey D Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 There's a question above about whether the U.S. built unacceptible armor and just fob'd it off on allies or scrapped it without using it... Up, they did. U.S. forces didn't get the M4A4 deisel tank, the multibank engined Sherman, the M5 halftrack or M17 AA halftrack (over 1,600 of these made!). The Soviet su-57 was a 6 pounder gun on a M3 halftrack chassis that the U.S. never accepted. The U.S even made more than a hundred AA halftracks mounting duel 20mm Oerlikon cannon, then dismantled them again before the troops got them! M3 Lee tanks theoretically never made it to the European theater, BUT there are rare pictures of the occassional Lee & Grant in British service being used as command tanks. I saw a pict of one that had an entire Sherman suspension unit bolted on backwards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 M3s did make it to the ETO as M7 Priest SP guns, which were built on M3 and M4 chassis. IIRC some of the chassis used were the really old riveted ones. When a shell hit the rivits would pop loose and fly around the tank, killing crewmen. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. The Last Defense- Mods, Scenarios, and more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kverdon Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Small Groggy note: IIRC, the reason the French 75mm fuses fitted the 75mm shells for the Grant/Lee is the the 75mm gun used on the Grant/Lee was not the 75mm used on the Sherman, but an earlier 75mm gun that was based upon the famous French 75 but built under license in the US. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Originally posted by kverdon: Small Groggy note: IIRC, the reason the French 75mm fuses fitted the 75mm shells for the Grant/Lee is the the 75mm gun used on the Grant/Lee was not the 75mm used on the Sherman, but an earlier 75mm gun that was based upon the famous French 75 but built under license in the US. IIRC, the Grant was upgunned halfway through its life from the short license-built french gun to the gun on the sherm 75s. I think the short barreled guns had weights on the muzzles to compensate for the weight of the gyrostabilizer. There's an excellent article on CMHQ about the M3. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. The Last Defense- Mods, Scenarios, and more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Originally posted by Mikey D: The U.S even made more than a hundred AA halftracks mounting duel 20mm Oerlikon cannon, then dismantled them again before the troops got them! Hehe... Great minds think alike. I had three of these attached to my battalion for local AA defence. They were fearsome to behold when they laid down a base of fire. I can only imagine what the Wirbelwind was like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Originally posted by Shatter: Thanks John Kettler "Actually my fondest memory is when Grandpa and a War buddy (whose name I can not remember) persuaded one of the B-17 pilots to let me sit in the Ball Turret after the show. I can still remember this day like it was just yesterday. Yes I still remember their personal tales of the war." ....and mine is the day my grandfather introduced me to Pappy Boyington at an airshow at Fairchild AFB. The years have passed but I still can remeber that day with perfect clarity. [This message has been edited by Talon (edited 02-23-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shatter Posted February 24, 2001 Author Share Posted February 24, 2001 Originally posted by Talon: "Actually my fondest memory is when Grandpa and a War buddy (whose name I can not remember) persuaded one of the B-17 pilots to let me sit in the Ball Turret after the show. I can still remember this day like it was just yesterday. Yes I still remember their personal tales of the war." ....and mine is the day my grandfather introduced me to Pappy Boyington at an airshow at Fairchild AFB. The years have passed but I still can remeber that day with perfect clarity. Hey Talon That is cool, I thought I was lucky. Actually I thought of posting a thread for all who have or had relatives in the war, and to share their fondest memory of their relatives stories or an event shared by their relatives and themselves. Anyone think this is a good idea??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Bates Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 On the subject of the "look" of tanks... The Sherman to me looks quite good. It looks like a "workhorse" type of vehicle which I suppose it was. Some of the German designs (Jagdtiger, Tiger II, Hetzer) look alien like, very futuristic. Then again when you look at the Jagdtiger and the Maus it's clear to see the depths to which German design had sunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvet Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Originally posted by Talon: ....and mine is the day my grandfather introduced me to Pappy Boyington at an airshow at Fairchild AFB. The years have passed but I still can remeber that day with perfect clarity. Wow, you sure are lucky. The tv show "Black Sheep Squadron" came out when I was 5-6 years old. I believe this tv show had a huge influence on my life. It was at this time that I decided I would go into the military, and became interested in all things military. There was only one tv show that I had any interested in watching when I was a kid. I used to ask my mother to call me inside from playing when it was time for the "Black Sheep Squadron" to come on. We only had a little 13" black and white tv set with rabbit ears, but I watched that show every chance I got. Later in life I read all the books I could find about the real Greg "Pappy" Boyington. Of course I learned that the tv show was a very "Hollywood" version of things, but it was still pretty good. Looking back on it I think I kind of spent my military time with his attitude, which got me into trouble at times. Luckily, like him, I was good enough at what I did for them to decide not to throw me out, heh heh. Anyway, "Pappy" Boyington has been a hero of mine since my early childhood. To meet him would be quite an honor. ------------------ Craiger All your victory flag are belong to me [This message has been edited by Subvet (edited 02-24-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shatter Posted February 24, 2001 Author Share Posted February 24, 2001 I thought of posting a thread for all who have or had relatives in the war, and to share their fondest memory of their relatives stories or an event shared by their relatives and themselves. Anyone think this is a good idea??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Canal Defence Light Saw something on this at a museum (Bovington) here in the UK. Seems it was named as such as a cover to its actual role. As i recall it had a big lamp and bulb and it was deisgned to flash extremely brighly (millions and millions of candle power), and 'stun' enemy tank crews at night. After a few minutes of flashing the bulb bit had to be replaced. They were designed to work with friendly tanks and so on, in case of german invasion. after the threat of invasion ended I am sure i read they were bassically withdrawn from service.. hmm? PeterNZ ------------------ "What do I care, I got laid last week" - Chupacabra "Bjorn again are really quite good!" - Germanboy - Official owner of the sig files of Dalem and Croda - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Originally posted by PeterNZer: Canal Defence Light after the threat of invasion ended I am sure i read they were bassically withdrawn from service.. hmm? Grant CDLs were used in Totalize and the Rhine crossing at least, in both cases to provide "artificial moonlight". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LimShady Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 Originally posted by PeterNZer: Canal Defence Light Saw something on this at a museum (Bovington) here in the UK. Seems it was named as such as a cover to its actual role. As i recall it had a big lamp and bulb and it was deisgned to flash extremely brighly (millions and millions of candle power), and 'stun' enemy tank crews at night. After a few minutes of flashing the bulb bit had to be replaced. They were designed to work with friendly tanks and so on, in case of german invasion. after the threat of invasion ended I am sure i read they were bassically withdrawn from service.. hmm? PeterNZ The American "codename" was the Shop Tractor. Incidentally, if you read about the capture of the Remagen bridgehead, several CDLs were deployed to the area as defense against German saboteurs that might float down the river to down the bridge. The intensity and frequency of the the light was supposed to cause diorientation and nasuea in people in its beam. Of course the bridge had to collapse on it's own... LimShady [This message has been edited by LimShady (edited 02-24-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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