Galatine Posted November 24, 2001 Share Posted November 24, 2001 I've been lurking here for a quite awhile and have stayed that way until very recently. It's a little intimidating for people new to CM, wargames or military history in general to pipe up with questions, comments, ideas etc. in a forum filled with some VERY knowledgeble people. Most of you are very welcoming and courteous but none the less the fear of speaking up and getting flamed is there. Perhaps a "beginner's start here board" would be a good place to encourage newbie participation. A place where someone could feel free to ask ANY question, no matter how simple, without fearing the: "Did you do a search???!!!!" "We've talked about that before, I'm sick of it!" [ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: Galatine ] [ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: Galatine ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted November 24, 2001 Share Posted November 24, 2001 God, this has been asked so many times before. Did you even do a search? Ask whatever you want, but read the manual first and browse through the forum. There is a FAQ on here somewhere that might answer many of your questions. Oh, and have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted November 24, 2001 Share Posted November 24, 2001 dont let that get to you, if you have a question just ask. there are a lot of nicer people here on these boards, and if that subject has been beaten to death, someone will usually give you a link to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galatine Posted November 24, 2001 Author Share Posted November 24, 2001 Too late, I don't have any basic questions anymore! However it did take me a VERY long time to wait for the answers to come up in a digestible form. I agree that many answers can be found in the search of the archives but that does assume everyone knows how to use those fuctions on the board. Trial and error can take a while. The FAQ is fantastic, no argument there. Frankly it's regretable that it doesn't alway come up first. Here's one more idea. A weekly e-mail: "best of the boards" compliation. Strings get added so fast it becomes almost impossible to read them all. It would be fantastic if some devoted board member could pare them down to just the juicy bits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted November 24, 2001 Share Posted November 24, 2001 Often, you'll get a kinder reception to basic questions on the Tips & Tricks board. [ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: Moriarty ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galatine Posted November 24, 2001 Author Share Posted November 24, 2001 I agree! That's where I've been cutting my teeth before moving over here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted November 24, 2001 Share Posted November 24, 2001 You also get a better reception with how you word things. Sometimes people will come on the board, and with their first poist say, "BTS sucks because my Tiger tank was killed by a Sherman, how could they be such complete idiots!!!" and of course old timers wince and attack the pillock. (And if you think this is exagerrating just wait around for a while). Very rarely do you see anyone attacked who says, "I am new to the board, but I just noticed this and that seemed out of place." Also, people who are new in general to forums with Grogs on them will often see replies of information as attacks. For example, when they say, "My father told me the M10 sucked, but I just had one kill a Tiger in the game" Grogs will often come back with things like asking for a definition of sucked, what range and angle was the Tiger killed, what proof does the person have that an M10 could not kill a Tiger at the range, or with a reply of 12 historical cases of kills under similar circumstances. No one is attacking the new poster, but more often than not the new poster feels they have been attacked because they have never been anywhere where they had to use complex arguments and cited facts to prove a point. In a similar manner, many new posters will suggest that the game would be better if there were hip fired M2HB, hover Tigers, or other oditities, and they will again be asked by the grogs to prove the historical veracity of their claim. This can seem like a cruel attack, but it is no more cruel than an academic who must support a claim made in a paper with evidence, or a businessman who must support a plan to buy a certian fixed asset with a cost benefit analysis. There is a big difference between asking what artillery is best to buy for fighting in built up / urban areas and demading that BTS make the King Tiger more powerful, give the British undefeatable machineguns, hand out submachineguns to every other US soldier, or eliminate gyrostabilizers on US M4s, without offering up some pretty substantial proof. In the first case you will get lots of opinions which are worth what you take away from them. In the second case, you had better be ready to support your supposition with more than a couple of photographs and a passage from an obscure History Channel show whose exact title you cannot remember. No one is against the new poster here, merely interested in a more reasoned approach to discussing potential changes to the game, especially since the "King Tiger is to Weak" thread is reposted every month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galatine Posted November 25, 2001 Author Share Posted November 25, 2001 Sweet Mother of Mary! Slapdragon, If it takes that long to explain why 'newbies' upset 'Grogs' it proves my point better than anything I could say! Newbies shouldn't have to stand up to that kind of intellectual scutiny. I'm not sure any one should. Politeness is culturally relative, this board is international. Every personal opinion shouldn't be a matter for debate. Am I the only casual, non-historian, non-military buff who just wants to play a fun game? I'd just like a place where normal non-Grog people could ask a simple non-Grog question and get a simple answer instead of 20 page disertation proceded by an explaination of why it was a stupid question to begin with and followed by endless debate on some minor over or undermodeled game feature! Ok, new question: Is there a club I can go to discuss this game with everyday people who aren't experts in WWII, Solviet tank doctrine or some such and just want to talk, not debate? God, from the way some of you act you'd swear it wasn't a game at all! [ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: Galatine ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 Newbies don't need there own forum! Its the old guys like me that need a forum to get away from all the repeated questions! Just joking... I don't know about everyone else, but it would be good to have a new players board so we don't have to see the same questions that make us so angry at them. Anyway that just my 10 cents. After all they ask the questions any how, even though there is a search, if it even works. So why not have a section for them. [ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: Panzerman ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Carrot Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 Don't forget there is the anthology of helpful posts in the tips and treaks section of the forum. Well worth a read if you have the time. [ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: Cpl Carrot ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galatine Posted November 25, 2001 Author Share Posted November 25, 2001 Yoo-hoo! Someone understood my point! It seems that this board is still a little too-Grog for me and I've been playing the game for almost a year now! I'm sure its a great historical tactical model but personally, it works just fine as a game too. I wonder if this whole board doesn't have too much Peng attitude leakage. The board has become a little like an elite club or frat. You're free to join (in) but the initiation is not really worth the parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Galatine: Sweet Mother of Mary! Slapdragon, If it takes that long to explain why 'newbies' upset 'Grogs' it proves my point better than anything I could say! Newbies shouldn't have to stand up to that kind of intellectual scutiny. I'm not sure any one should. Politeness is culturally relative, this board is international. Every personal opinion shouldn't be a matter for debate. Am I the only casual, non-historian, non-military buff who just wants to play a fun game? I'd just like a place where normal non-Grog people could ask a simple non-Grog question and get a simple answer instead of 20 page disertation proceded by an explaination of why it was a stupid question to begin with and followed by endless debate on some minor over or undermodeled game feature! Ok, new question: Is there a club I can go to discuss this game with everyday people who aren't experts in WWII, Solviet tank doctrine or some such and just want to talk, not debate? God, from the way some of you act you'd swear it wasn't a game at all! [ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: Galatine ]<hr></blockquote> Galatine, you seem to be making a huge mistake, equating all "newbies" with people who want to post inane comments without people pointing out how inane their comments are in polite ways. Polite in that they use structured sentences, references, and logic rather than insults. Some people just want to say, "Hey, I think Tigers are not modelled correctly" then get pissed off when someone who probably knows a whole lot more about the subject asks them to prove their statement. That is not a newbie, it is an imbecile. A true newbie who was not an imbecile would have read my and other peoples previous comments and taken them for what they were, advice on what subjects are grog subjects and how to intellectually discuss them (something most people should have learned in their 2nd year of high school). For example here is some rules -- >>> A Newbies does not take offense where none was given, an imbecile does. On this list, if you ask about something or put something forward, expect to have it discussed in an intellectual manner. If you wanted a discussion on nail polish, there are forum for that. >>>> A Newbie accepts cultural things like the Peng thread for what it is, an imbecile castigates it because they cannot understand it. There is no reason why you cannot start your own thread similar ot the Peng Challenge Thread, or even show up over there and get down to it. The Peng Challenge Thread is an important cultural element of this board, coming onto the board and attacking this cultural element shows a limited understanding of how online communities work, and a lack of politeness that you are demanding from others. >>>> A Newbie reads what is written to understand what is going on. An imbecile does not. I wrote that putting forward an opinion about the value of this or that artillery in playing is one thing, claiming that the Tiger can do this or that is another, and will result in far different discussions. So basically what we have is a mistake of terminology. What you seem to be claiming as abuse of "newbies" is really probably you noticing the abuse of imbeciles. This is not a cultural issue since all cultures have imbeciles, and all imbeciles get abused the same. Newbies get treated quite well on this board, far better than Usenet, and much better than other chat groups I can mention. Imbeciles get handed their heads when they prove themselves to be imbeciles. In fact, I have seen TSS (a Finn), Germanboy (a German), Dorosh (a Canadian), Argie (an Argentinian), Spook, Vanir, and Pillar (Americans) all being quite patient with a Newbie, trying to explain why something was so, a multicultural menage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 Note Galatine, I am not calling you an imbecile. What you want would be the death of intellectual discussions here (al la Usenet), outlawing all critical discussion for fear of offending a "Newbie". Since I for one do not think there is anything wrong with being a newbie, I prefer to divide out that special type of newbie who wants all creation to stop because they think the King Tiger should be more powerful, and who gets upset when someone wants proof of a wild claim they make. 90% of all Newbies are not imbeciles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumvir Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 Not all of USENET is dead; even thinking that USENET is dead betrays a definite n00b13 bias. The alt.* hierarchy isn't all there is to USENET. Heck, sci.military.moderated is a great example of debate on the internet; so are others like rec.humor.oracle.d. Newbie spanking is a sport that never even came close to dying out on USENET. Not to mention the occasional spots of brilliance even in the alt.* hierarchy like alt.usage.english or alt.folklore.urban. As for your position, though; I find myself agreeing with you. There is a difference between a newbie and an idiot; and there are many, many idiots who post here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Triumvir: Not all of USENET is dead; even thinking that USENET is dead betrays a definite n00b13 bias. The alt.* hierarchy isn't all there is to USENET. Heck, sci.military.moderated is a great example of debate on the internet; so are others like rec.humor.oracle.d. Newbie spanking is a sport that never even came close to dying out on USENET. Not to mention the occasional spots of brilliance even in the alt.* hierarchy like alt.usage.english or alt.folklore.urban. As for your position, though; I find myself agreeing with you. There is a difference between a newbie and an idiot; and there are many, many idiots who post here.<hr></blockquote> I have to admit that there are some good moderated Usenet forums still in existence. But my reference to Usenet comes from being one of the early posters on alt.rockandroll when it was still a discussion point on issue of censorship, and seeing it brun down into sillyness. Still, I was overbroad in my statement. There are embers of coolness still to be found on the old Usenet, weezy as the alts are now days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Galatine: Yoo-hoo! Someone understood my point! It seems that this board is still a little too-Grog for me and I've been playing the game for almost a year now! I'm sure its a great historical tactical model but personally, it works just fine as a game too. I wonder if this whole board doesn't have too much Peng attitude leakage. The board has become a little like an elite club or frat. You're free to join (in) but the initiation is not really worth the parties.<hr></blockquote> I understand, to some extent, where Galatine is coming from on this, though I think he takes it a bit too far. Obviously it's getting to be a little dificult to come in here and ask an 'intelligent' question about game mechanics or why certain things are the way they are because damn near every one of them has been asked dozens of times before. And the search engine (I heard the rumour that they've improved it, lately) hasn't been up to the task on many of these issues. And although there are still many helpful people who will try and provide an answer, there are far more who are ready to scream when questions like 'how come they don't show all 12 men in a squad, and when will this be added?' come up. The problem with a 'Newbie' forum, where these issues could be raised without a sudden rain of curses and weightier objects, would be that it would be mainly people asking these same questions, with few of them knowing the answers (at least not the whole answer), and then discussing them amongst themselves to no bloody purpose whatsoever. They would have to hope that some patient and avuncular figure would show up and point them in the right way. Or maybe they could sort it all out themselves, I suppose, various Newbies posting links and snippets they'd encountered. I see no reason not to give them a place to fumble around in, except that it just makes more work for the Moderators, and they've already got plenty to do. Now, Galatine, if you're talking about the ability to discuss tactics and game play, well, any Newbie is as free to start a thread along this line as anyone else, and in the last few months I've found these to be about the most interesting threads on the Board. I've seldom seen even the rankest 'beginner' question on these issues treated unkindly. Indeed, they often produce some very good discussions. And if grogs show up and start raving about the German Army Handbook, or 'that's not how Rommel would have done it', or 'you'd understand why your tactical question is stupid if you considered the frontal armour thickness, mis-modeled as it is in this game'; well, it isn't only Newbies who back off to a safe distance and then ignore them. Also, let me conclude by saying that the Peng Challenge Thread does not abuse or discriminate against 'Newbies', nor respect those who do. If, however, you were to say that they treat 'Newcomers' to the Peng Challenge Thread rather roughly, you'd be quite right. And that, in fact, is one of the whole premises of the Peng Challenge Thread. But the Peng Challenge is not, by any stretch, a grog thread or dominated by them. We are quite democratic. Anyone who loves CM, has their wits about them, is thick-skinned, and is open to the give and take of taunting, is welcome to the Peng Challenge Thread. And it requires no specialized knowledge. It may be cast in such a way as to be more awkward for non-native English speakers, but that is not by design. And for that matter, many of the greatest posts of the Peng Challenge Thread have been made by those for whom English is a second language. And some of them are almost completely incomprehensible, but acknowledge by one and all as 'sheer genius'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyrene Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 The Peng thread is an excellent place for new players to post technical questions and to ask for advice. Don't be afraid to ask questions, we're all just people here, not revered lore-masters. (Well, maybe not JasonC and Rexford) Some of us (Like me) don't know anything but yabber all the time just the same. Gyrene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Slapdragon: In fact, I have seen TSS (a Finn), Germanboy (a German), Dorosh (a Canadian), Argie (an Argentinian), Spook, Vanir, and Pillar (Americans) all being quite patient with a Newbie, trying to explain why something was so, a multicultural menage.<hr></blockquote> Me? Patient? Shurely not. I am German. If I was it must have been a mishtake, and it is inappropriate to mention it in public. Probably only because shooting them on the spot for their morosity is unfortunately quite illegal. Bloody rule of law, I say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 What does newbie mean i heard it all the time what is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Germanboy: mishtake<hr></blockquote> Not edited because... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Berlichtingen: Not edited because...<hr></blockquote> Shome mishtake, shurely? (you have to read Private Eye to understand it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 Seanachai, Since we are in the Board Outer I will not point out what a pillock you are, but I must address a few of your longwinded points... <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Also, let me conclude by saying that the Peng Challenge Thread does not abuse or discriminate against 'Newbies'<hr></blockquote> Yes we do... we abuse and discriminate against everyone... newbies are no exception. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>But the Peng Challenge is not, by any stretch, a grog thread or dominated by them.<hr></blockquote> Perhaps not a grog thread, but probably dominated by them. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>We are quite democratic. <hr></blockquote> No we are not... next you'll be saying newbies get to vote. <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>And it requires no specialized knowledge.<hr></blockquote> But knowledge is a requirement <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>And for that matter, many of the greatest posts of the Peng Challenge Thread have been made by those for whom English is a second language. And some of them are almost completely incomprehensible, but acknowledge by one and all as 'sheer genius'.<hr></blockquote> Are you talking about the Austrailians again? [ 11-25-2001: Message edited by: Berlichtingen ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurlyBen Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Galatine: Is there a club I can go to discuss this game with everyday people who aren't experts in WWII, Solviet tank doctrine or some such and just want to talk, not debate? [ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: Galatine ]<hr></blockquote> Actually there is. Check out the Band of Brothers website. There's a fairly active forum and everyone is pretty laid back and more interested in playing CM than having groggy discusions. As for it being intimidating to post to this board, Galatine has a point. It often seems like tactics discussions (for example) involve some newbie making a claim like "I've had some luck throwing half-assed waves of ill-coordinated infantry at dug in defenders..." followed by the inevitable grognard "How could you possibly even try that?!? The half-assed infantry attack was pretty much conclusively proved worthless by Buller at the famous battle of Colenso in 1899 during the second Boer War. Anyone who doesn't know that obvious bit of information has no business playing CM, much less posting to the board." Now, between grognards this is just fine (as it is just fine when academics are challenged by other academics to support their theories). But I think that a grog having this sort of discussion with a non grog is like a math teacher trying to teach a bunch of 4th graders differential equations. At best it goes over their heads and at worst it puts them off math forever. The math geek 4th graders will, of course, think it is all very cool. Anyway, I think that a newbie area is not a bad idea. Didn't a bunch of Pengers try and start a newbie Q&A thread a while back? Surlyben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 I have actually never read any Grogs jump down some Newbies throat about tactics, but I could be wrong (anyone got a URL?) . However, when someone comes on the board and says, "BTS is a bunch of idiots becausethey left out (name your favorite stupid thing)", or "the game is great except Tiger suck, please fix this now BTS" I have a major problem with it then becomeing "well, I am a newbie and I cannot be bothered to support my demand of BTS with facts, nor is it proper that I be contradicted by grogs." We even had one idiot claiming that since he was a customer, he had the right to demand historically incorrect changes to the game and BTS had no choice but to do them, because he had paid his 50 bucks. So this is far different from attacking a new poster in a discussion on tactics. Although again, if you post an opinion, you should be ready to discuss why you think what you think, to expand on what you think, or to further illustrate the issue rather than getting mad when people want to discuss what you posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurlyBen Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 Well, it seems that tactics discussions are a bad example. And my simile was full of gratuitous hyperbole. You may consider it retracted. I was hard pressed to find any tactics discussions at all that were started by newbies. (Not that I am particularly surprised. I know I'm still more than a little intimidated to try and start up a discussion about tactics on this forum, and I doubt I qualify as a newbie.) I did find a lot of discussions where the grogs were jumping down each others throats about tactics, though. (Pretty much any thread started by JasonC, tactical or otherwise...) There are a lot of threads where the grogs and oldtimers give the impression that they are slightly piqued that a basic question has been asked or half decent suggestion made. This thread is a pretty good example of that. I'm not saying that anyone should tone down anything, or be all nice and wonderful and apologetic all the time. The Roast-the-newbie game has a long and honorable tradition on web based forums, Usenet, and in real life. What I am saying that a newbie forum or thread where people were nice and toned down and apologetic all the time might be a good idea. As an aside, I don't really see what someone being an idiot has to do with it. The idiots are still going to make their "BTS!!! pls buy me new computer so I can run CM!!!11" posts in every forum, and newbies don't have a monopoly on idiotic posts. Maybe I'm just surly because I never got assimilated by the CM borg. Surlyben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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