Sherman V vs PzIVH Test

[Treeburst155]

A row of ten regular PzIVHs squares off against a row of ten regular Sherman Vs. The rows are 596 meters apart. Terrain is clear and flat with good visibility. No targetting orders were issued to either side. I ran the test FIFTY times. In all cases one side or the other was completely destroyed in less than a minute. For the stats below, "victory" is defined as having at least one surviving unit after the mad minute.

German Victories 31 (62%)

British Victories 19 (38%)

Total survivors in all victories:

Germans 136

British 65

Average survivor count per victory:

Germans 4.39

British 3.42

Immobilized survivors:

Germans 8 (5.9%)

British 9 (13.8%)

Gun Damaged survivors:

Germans 5 (3.7%)

British 0 (0.0%)

Conclusion: Even at relatively short range (600-700) against average German armor the standard Sherman will usually lose. This may not be news to some, but it sure was to me. It will be interesting to see what happens at 300 meters between the lines. More testing to come.

Treeburst155

[Hakko Ichiu]

Interesting, but a static test negates the Sherman's main advantages vs. the Mk IV, i.e., the fast turret and the gyrostabilizer. Not sure how you could build a controlled test that would allow for this, however.

[Maximus]

Issue FAST move orders for the Shermans and see what happens. Or even have them run broadside in front of the PzIVs and see what happens.

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"Upon my signal, unleash Hell."--General Maximus, Gladiator

"Aim small, miss small."--Mel Gibson, The Patriot

[Michael Dorosh]

What they said.

Also bear in mind a Sherman is bigger than a Pz IV IIRC - makes a much nicer target. Especially when stationary.

[Treeburst155]

This is the same test with one change. The opposing lines were moved to 295 meters apart. This makes the longest shot possible 400 meters (30 meters spacing between tanks). Now the Shermans start to even things up with their faster turrets I assume.

German Victories 27 (54%)

British Victories 23 (46%)

Total survivors in all victories:

Germans 108

British 90

Average survivor count per victory:

Germans 4.00

British 3.91

Immobilized survivors:

Germans 12 (11.1%)

British 4 (4.4%)

Gun Damaged survivors:

Germans 7 (6.5%)

British 3 (3.3%)

Conclusion: Get as close as possible with Shermans. Avoid engagements over 400 meters with enemy armor like you would the plague. 300 meters would even be better. I knew to avoid long range fights with my Shermans but it appears you need to avoid even medium range engagements also, even against the PzIVH.

Comments on posts above:

Fast moving is often not an option for many possible reasons.

Fast turrets are almost worthless at greater than 400 meters if the Sherman's not moving and is engaging enemies generally to his front within a fairly narrow arc. Get close or die with Shermans unless you have room to roam freely at "fast" speed. Still you will need to be fairly close.

Treeburst155

[Vanir]

Move the range to 2000m and see how bad the Shermans get mauled. It's not even a contest.

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What a bunch of horsecrap. -Steve

[This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 02-17-2001).]

[:USERNAME:]

Try sherman 76mm vs PIV at 1500 meters or so. The germans get creamed.

[curih]

Trying to decide what your chances are in our game? Sounds like I have the advantage for the beginning, I hope you can hide well.

curih

[Michael Dorosh]

Come to think of it, he's using Shermans in a game against me, too. I am fooling him into using up his ammo by presenting the rear target aspect of all my AFVs. The poor sap is buying into it (sigh)

[Pvt. Ryan]

I tried to run this test at 4,000 meters but CM keeps freezing. I have 10 Sherman M4A1s vs. 10 Panzer IVHs on a long, flat, clear map. BTS please fix!!! or do somefink.

[Forever Babra]

Heheh... start all the tanks back to back at any reasonable range.

[Apache]

AFAIK, allied tankers were well aware of the shortcomings of the Sherman, including the weakness against German tanks in a one-to-one scenario. The tests conducted demonstrate that clearly. It was also, AFAIK, common practice for the platoons to 'gang up' on individual IV, Vs etc and try to out flank them or force them to run, which would allow a tail shot.

[Wolfe]

The reasons for the PzIV winning are likely: it has both a lower silhouette and higher muzzle velocity, giving it a better chance of hitting the Sherman-75 while avoiding being hit. This can be a *huge* advantage in any duel.

Also, one of the things I noticed when doing some tests like this a while back, the Shermans' 75mm gun can't always penetrate the hull of the PzIV, especially at distance or if the tank is obliqued. While the PzIV's gun doesn't seem to have quite as much trouble with the Sherman's hull (though you'll still get some ricochets). I suspect folks that are trying it at 800m or more are getting a number of Sherman rounds that bounce off the hull while most of the PzIV rounds are penetrating.

If you replace the Sherman V with the Sherman III, the 100% armor rating on the Sherman III's upper hull will induce *many* more ricochets at 800m. Sherm III has 100% of 64mm at 47 degrees. Sherm V has only 85% of 51mm at 56 (effectively 43mm@56). Armor quality matters.

Put both sides hull down (so you can only hit the weak turrets) or give the Sherman a better gun (as Lewis said) so it can penetrate the hull more readily and get help with accuracy from the higher muzzle velocity, and the outcomes will change dramatically.

- Chris

[This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 02-18-2001).]