CavScout Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by Scipio: Tankgirl, you are a very very bad girl!!! Pearl Harbor was a day of valor! Think of all the heroic Japanese pilots risking (and given) their lives when executing a perfect planed attack!!! About as "valorous" as those executed the attack on the USS Cole. [This message has been edited by CavScout (edited 01-26-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 GWG said: Good thing grogs don't make movies, then we'd have no movies, just documentaries ! It's quite possible to make an historical, grog-approved movie that even mass audiences will find entertaining. Just stick with the facts and the action, don't go into BS character relationships that have no bearing on the actual events. IOW, instead of using the original footage, graphics, and narration of a documentary, just act out the historical scenes and use impressive special effects. "Tora^3" is a good example of this style. "Midway" is borderline--a bit too much fictional character development for my tastes--but still pretty good on the main facts of the battle. Now as to this movie in particular, it sounds like it's not just about Pearl but most of the early war, tracing the careers and loves of fictional characters against this backdrop. IOW, the main focus is the characters, not the historical events. Sorry, that means chickflick to me, as well as just the soapbox for the film-maker's political revisionism. Plus, it's been done countless times. Sadly, I bet "Enemy at the Gates" will be of the same type, based on the graphics on the web site ------------------ -Bullethead In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by CavScout: About as "valorous" as those executed the attack on the USS Cole. [This message has been edited by CavScout (edited 01-26-2001).] Please explain 'USS Cole'. I don't know the history of every US ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mirage2k Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 The USS Cole is a Arleigh Burke-class destroyer that was heavily damaged in a suicide attack by terrorists last year. I can't remember the exact number, but I think that around 10 or 12 of the crew died. -Andrew ------------------ "No, it's not that kind of relationship. We're just friends. We are together all the time, but I never touch her porcelain skin, her soft, red lips, like rose petals from the emperor's bathwater! Bathwater, I tell you, bathwateeeeeeer!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankgirl Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 I saw a documentary on the making of Das Boot, it seems like that would be Grog approved. (assuming Grog is a stickler for accuracy and detail) ------------------ "Snowpants are sexy!" http://www.geocities.com/wildhippychik/whp.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Toleran Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 The USS Cole was our ship which was attacked at Yemen last year in the same cowardly terrorist way that our ships were attacked at Pearl Harbor. Yamamoto was right to feel deep shame and fear when he realized we had never recieved the declaration of war on time by the Japanese ambassadors in Washington. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankgirl Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by Capt. Toleran: The USS Cole was our ship which was attacked at Yemen last year in the same cowardly terrorist way that our ships were attacked at Pearl Harbor. Yamamoto was right to feel deep shame and fear when he realized we had never recieved the declaration of war on time by the Japanese ambassadors in Washington. Yeah, he was ashamed. Incidentally, did Johnson and McNamara et Al ever express shame of the Gulf of Tonkin? Ha ha. "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. " --George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by Tankgirl: Yeah, he was ashamed. Incidentally, did Johnson and McNamara et Al ever express shame of the Gulf of Tonkin? Ha ha. Exactly who was killed in the Gulf of Tonkin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimmer Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Hadn't heard about this film until this thread. I had the privledge to fly front-seat in an SNJ (Navy T-6), owned by a friend (who died in an aviation accident a few years ago) and based at Dillingham, down the valley the Japanese used to approach Pearl some years ago. Canopy open, sun rising off the left wing, and Pearl Harbor in the distance. Still gives me chills thinking about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesy Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Tora Tora Tora on DVD is the only movie. Considering this was made in the early 70s, it doesn't have the level of crap jingoism. You got both perspectives. There has been no other movie made in the US (although Tora Tora Tora was a joint production) that shows the Japanese side fairly. Most other movies are propaganda bs Somebody made a comment about the "cowardly" act of the attack on Pearl Harbor - is it the moral equivalent of firebombing Tokyo or Dresden? All those defenseless civilians (women and children)...Hmm...War is a horrible thing. No side is immune from "dastardly" and "cowardly" acts. ------------------ "Lack of weapons is no excuse for defeat" - Lt. General Renya Mutaguchi, Commanding General, Japanese Fifteenth Army, 1944-1945 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by Wesy: Tora Tora Tora on DVD is the only movie. Considering this was made in the early 70s, it doesn't have the level of crap jingoism. You got both perspectives. There has been no other movie made in the US (although Tora Tora Tora was a joint production) that shows the Japanese side fairly. Most other movies are propaganda bs Somebody made a comment about the "cowardly" act of the attack on Pearl Harbor - is it the moral equivalent of firebombing Tokyo or Dresden? All those defenseless civilians (women and children)...Hmm...War is a horrible thing. No side is immune from "dastardly" and "cowardly" acts. I think the Japanese and Germans got everything they deserved - they certainly asked for it. You forget that they are the ones that started it. And committing giant acts of genocide (the Japanese were murdering Chinese civilians by the tens of thousands) all the while. I really don't see that firebombing their women and children in an attempt to get them to stop is in any way morally wrong or inexcusable. I think someone should lock up this thread before it gets even more silly. If anyone wants to continue the debate further, come over to http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/60599 This isn't the place for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by Wesy: Somebody made a comment about the "cowardly" act of the attack on Pearl Harbor - is it the moral equivalent of firebombing Tokyo or Dresden? All those defenseless civilians (women and children)...Hmm...War is a horrible thing. No side is immune from "dastardly" and "cowardly" acts. No someone equated the attack on Pearl with the Cole attack. That was me. War may be horrible, but it helps to be at war first. [This message has been edited by CavScout (edited 01-26-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by CavScout: Exactly who was killed in the Gulf of Tonkin? 50 000+ US Soldiers and 1 000 000+ Vietnamese. The terrorist attacks on the USS Cole, Pearl Harbor, USS Ruben James, Lusitania etc. is seen as cowardly by the US solely based on the fact that the US was the victim. The War of 1812, Guatemala, Bay of Pigs, Chilie, etc. were US terrorist attacks on other nations. Not seen quite as cowardly though... I wonder why...? I hope Ronald Regan felt some guilt over the Iran-Contra scandal. Not only did he give weapons to terrorists to win an election, but he broke the US Constitution in funding an illegal non-declared war to overthrow a democratically elected government. I have seen trailers for this movie, even barring the innacuracies of using Essex class CV's to represent the Akagi (probably), or these Burke Class whatevers trying to pass off as Cruisers/Battleships, from what I have seen of the romance and battle it portrays every US soldier and civilian as a hero, and ends with a happy raid on Tokyo so that people and Disney can leave happy reminding everyone what will happen if you dare anger the US. [This message has been edited by Major Tom (edited 01-26-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by Capt. Toleran: The USS Cole was our ship which was attacked at Yemen last year in the same cowardly terrorist way that our ships were attacked at Pearl Harbor. Yamamoto was right to feel deep shame and fear when he realized we had never recieved the declaration of war on time by the Japanese ambassadors in Washington. Oh, come on! As has been said countless times before, "the winners write the history books". If the Japanese had (through some miracle!) won the war, you can bet yr arse that Pearl Harbor would be mentioned in only the most reverent of tones as a well executed plan of operational genius. And I hardly think Yamamoto ever expressed any abiding shame or fear over what he had worked so hard to bring about. But then, since the USAAF had him assisinated by a hand-picked squadron of P38's, I guess we'll never know exactly how he felt about it, will we? And I'm sure the fanatic who blew himself (and 13 US sailors) to Paradise was of the opinion that his was the just cause... Very few things are ever that black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by Major Tom: 50 000+ US Soldiers and 1 000 000+ Vietnamese. Must have been one hell of a battle... The terrorist attacks on the USS Cole, Pearl Harbor, USS Ruben James, Lusitania etc. is seen as cowardly by the US solely based on the fact that the US was the victim. The War of 1812, Guatemala, Bay of Pigs, Chilie, etc. were US terrorist attacks on other nations. Not seen quite as cowardly though... I wonder why...? You'll see that I've NEVER called the Cole or Pearl Harbor attacks "terrorism". You simplty concluded this for your own reason to go off. How the War of 1812 was "terrorism" is beyond me, or the Bay of Pigs. I hope Ronald Regan felt some guilt over the Iran-Contra scandal. I am sure Reagan feels real bad about freeing American hostages. Not only did he give weapons to terrorists to win an election, but he broke the US Constitution in funding an illegal non-declared war to overthrow a democratically elected government. And what exactly was un-Constitutional? Some would argue that the Boland Amendment was un-Constitutional itself. I have seen trailers for this movie, even barring the innacuracies of using Essex class CV's to represent the Akagi (probably), or these Burke Class whatevers trying to pass off as Cruisers/Battleships, from what I have seen of the romance and battle it portrays every US soldier and civilian as a hero, and ends with a happy raid on Tokyo so that people and Disney can leave happy reminding everyone what will happen if you dare anger the US. I wonder if people have forgotten that movies are entertainment. hell, I am sure some on this board would complain that the movie <u>Gettysburg</u> was focuse too much on Americans... [This message has been edited by CavScout (edited 01-26-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by von Lucke: And I hardly think Yamamoto ever expressed any abiding shame or fear over what he had worked so hard to bring about. But then, since the USAAF had him assisinated by a hand-picked squadron of P38's, I guess we'll never know exactly how he felt about it, will we? Assasinated? Good god... a military person killed in a war... that's assasination? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacky Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by Major Tom: The War of 1812 ... were US terrorist attacks on other nations Major Tom, please back this statement with facts. I've taken immense pleasure in reading the history of this war in all accounts from many perspectives. I am asking for a single source, just a sole piece of literature, which supports your claim. The United States of America declared war on Britain. The British in Canada had ample warning of the impending American attack. Hardly what one would consider terrorist. Yet, the British fully supported their own policy of high sea pirating and Indian attacks on US settlements. I can find some rather interesting quotes of the British ordering the surrender of defeated US forces or else face the scalping knife of the Indians. [This message has been edited by Lacky (edited 01-26-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russellmz Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by von Lucke: Oh, come on! As has been said countless times before, "the winners write the history books". If the Japanese had (through some miracle!) won the war, you can bet yr arse that Pearl Harbor would be mentioned in only the most reverent of tones as a well executed plan of operational genius. actually most japanese texts barely mention it, rarely mentioning that the declaration was late in arriving(i remember a political cartoon where a japanese student was presenting his report on the "treacherous defense of pearl harbor by the americans" =) ) And I hardly think Yamamoto ever expressed any abiding shame or fear over what he had worked so hard to bring about. But then, since the USAAF had him assisinated by a hand-picked squadron of P38's, I guess we'll never know exactly how he felt about it, will we? americans are evil! we kill enemy soldiers in total violation of every rule of war! (after all, assasination is bad, right?) ------------------ russellmz, Self-Proclaimed Keeper for Life of the Sacred Unofficial FAQ. "They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush "They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by CavScout: Assasinated? Good god... a military person killed in a war... that's assasination? Merely overdramatizing the incident to bring it in line with the "Pearl Harbor is Terrorism" quote. But yah, we knew the route his unarmed transport plane would take (thanks to our having broken the Japanese command codes), and specifically planned to intercept and shoot it down in order to kill the Commander of the IJN fleet. An operation conducted to eliminate a specific individual (who is not given an oportunity to fight back), even in time of war, is assisination. I believe the legal phrase "malice aforethought" is what makes the distinction. At least a combat soldier has the cold comfort of knowing that it's "nothing personal" if a 105mm shell lands on his head. And I just wish the Brits had followed through with one of their own plans to wack Hitler... [This message has been edited by von Lucke (edited 01-26-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by russellmz: americans are evil! we kill enemy soldiers in total violation of every rule of war! (after all, assasination is bad, right?) Hardly. We just haven't been a country long enough to rack up the record of war "crimes" that the rest of the world has. If there were more assasinations, there'd be less wars. (Or maybe just more mediochre wars?) What polititian want's to put his own arse in jeopardy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: I think the Japanese and Germans got everything they deserved - they certainly asked for it. You forget that they are the ones that started it. And committing giant acts of genocide (the Japanese were murdering Chinese civilians by the tens of thousands) all the while. I really don't see that firebombing their women and children in an attempt to get them to stop is in any way morally wrong or inexcusable. I think someone should lock up this thread before it gets even more silly. If anyone wants to continue the debate further, come over to http://network54.com/Hide/Forum/60599 This isn't the place for this. To continue your thought: you agree surely that it would be okay if the American natives start a firebombing of L.A. or Washington? I mean, the Americans would only got what they deserved for their genozide. Do people like you don't know mathematics? Do you think one murder + one murder = 0 murder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by Capt. Toleran: The USS Cole was our ship which was attacked at Yemen last year in the same cowardly terrorist way that our ships were attacked at Pearl Harbor. Yamamoto was right to feel deep shame and fear when he realized we had never recieved the declaration of war on time by the Japanese ambassadors in Washington. It is cowardly and a shame if an asshole call himself a terrorist and bomb a building full of children or other civilians. If a military ship is successfully attacked by a commando, then someone on the ship hasn't made his job. That's not terrorism. What would be if the ship was from Irak and the 'terrorist' was SEALs? And about Preal Harbor - I really don't understand the whining about the 'late' declaration of war. Do someone believe a single American men had survived if the declaration has reached the US one or two hours before the attack how it was planned? [This message has been edited by Scipio (edited 01-27-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by von Lucke: Merely overdramatizing the incident to bring it in line with the "Pearl Harbor is Terrorism" quote. Who called it terrorism? Not I. Attacks on military targets hardly count as terrorism in my book. But yah, we knew the route his unarmed transport plane would take (thanks to our having broken the Japanese command codes), and specifically planned to intercept and shoot it down in order to kill the Commander of the IJN fleet. An operation conducted to eliminate a specific individual (who is not given an oportunity to fight back), even in time of war, is assisination. I believe the legal phrase "malice aforethought" is what makes the distinction. At least a combat soldier has the cold comfort of knowing that it's "nothing personal" if a 105mm shell lands on his head. And I just wish the Brits had followed through with one of their own plans to wack Hitler... If you believe that hog wash, you must reallyhate submariners... or is sinking unarmed transport ships a-ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by von Lucke: Hardly. We just haven't been a country long enough to rack up the record of war "crimes" that the rest of the world has. Simply silly. The US is the LONGEST single government in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 27, 2001 Share Posted January 27, 2001 Originally posted by CavScout: Simply silly. The US is the LONGEST single government in the world. As opposed to British Parliament? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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