Related to my other question: Why was there a Waffen SS?

[Guy w/gun]

What was this branch of the german military for? Was it purely political? I am aware of the role of the SS in the Nazi genocide in Europe, so what did the Waffen SS stand for?

[Mark IV]

Waffen = armed.

SS = Schutzstaffeln = defense legions.

The armed (as opposed to the more political) branch of the SS, with emphasis on racial purity and first loyalty to the Hitlerian regime. Originally a true elite, the qualifications and the 'cruits declined as the war ground on. Their importance in Hitler's eyes grew as their quality declined, after the 20 July bomb plot, which was attributed to "regular" Army officers, and provided further evidence that reactionary Heer (regular army) types couldn't be trusted. The Waffen SS was always in tacit competition with the regular army.

Darlings of the administration, they often received the latest technology and equipment, and were generally perceived as more fanatical than regular Wehrmacht (German Army) troops. This became a self-fulflling prophecy as "SS" became synonymous with "atrocity", and prisoners and deserters from SS fared poorly in enemy hands. The Waffen SS were often confused with their more political SS Totenkopf counterparts, many of whom were not German at all and many of whom were, and who ran the concentration camps and performed other ideological "duties" behind the front lines, consisting of some of the worst atrocities in the land war.

Later in the war, SS troops were thought to substitute fanaticism and esprit for solid training and tactical expertise, with bloody results. Still, the Waffen SS was generally feared by its enemies as an elite force and a tougher than usual opponent, even when the mystique was not really justified.

[Major Tom]

Like many militaries, the Waffen SS was indeed a political representation of an armed force. It was the most loyal and most fiersome formation in the German army during WWII. Much like Napoleon's Imperial Guard, and Hussain's Republican Guard, the Waffen SS was developed as a strong strike force, and bolstering force to keep the regular formations in line.

[Guy w/gun]

Thank you Mark IV. Thanks for the translation of Schutzstaffeln (knew what Waffen meant, but never knew what Schutz.. meant).

In my "modern" mind, elite forces always equaled small, highly trained, inf used in special operations (SAS, SEALs, Spetznaz)I always figured they were just supposed to be an elite force, but never understood why they recieved much of the same weaponry that the Heer did, like armor for example.

[CavScout]

Originally posted by Guy w/gun:

In my "modern" mind, elite forces always equaled small, highly trained, inf used in special operations (SAS, SEALs, Spetznaz)I always figured they were just supposed to be an elite force, but never understood why they recieved much of the same weaponry that the Heer did, like armor for example.

The Waffen SS wasn't that sort. They were a "counter balance" to the Heer. The Nazis never really trusted the military. The W-SS was about as necessary as the Lutwaffe's infantry.

[Warmaker]

As far as equipment goes take a close look on equivalent units in the infantry units for example between the Heer and Waffen SS. Generally you'll start seeing better weapons than Kar98K's which are easily overpowered by the splendid U.S. M1 Garands. Waffen SS infantry units tend to have more and better weapons, i.e. more LMGs and the cutting edge Sturmgewehr-44's (daddy of modern assault rifles).

From what I've read there was a little bit of animosity between the Heer and Waffen-SS higher ups over receiving new tanks, weapons, etc. since the Waffen SS was Hitler's baby. It would have probably made more sense to have a very small Waffen SS to maintain the standards throughout the war but Hitler did want a counterbalance to the Heer. To be honest, the only Waffen SS divisions I have any good knowledge are the original panzer divisions like the 1st SS"Leibstandarte"Pz.Div. and 2nd SS"Das Reich"Pz.Div. Both had extremely good reputations throughout the war.

------------------

"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[Juha Ahoniemi]

Mark IV,

A slight mix-up perhaps - there were many foreigners in waffen SS, less in Totenkopf I think. I hope my friend Ari will contribute more about this matter...

Juha

[This message has been edited by Juha Ahoniemi (edited 02-21-2001).]

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by Major Tom:

Like many militaries, the Waffen SS was indeed a political representation of an armed force. It was the most loyal and most fiersome formation in the German army during WWII. Much like Napoleon's Imperial Guard, and Hussain's Republican Guard, the Waffen SS was developed as a strong strike force, and bolstering force to keep the regular formations in line.

More like the Republican (ie; Politically Safe) Guard than the French Old Guard. Just to make Private in the FOG, you had to have held the rank of Captain in a line regt, and had five years of combat experience. To make Private in the Waffen SS all you needed was a valid Nazi Party membership card.

[Wisbech_lad]

The German totalitarian regime was run somewhat on the lines of a gangster operation, with intense infighting between the "barons". Any organisation that could have been an alternative power base had to be "nazified" or destroyed (unions, churches, political parties, police, armed forces, even boy scouts)

The SS were set up by Himmler & Heydrich as a counterbalance to the SD street thugs, (which the Heer demanded be liquidated IIRC). Later the Waffen SS were a counter balance to the Heer, to prevent them ever becoming a threat. Army Intelligence especially was seen as suspect.

This infighting was also the reason for the Luftwaffe divisions, Goering refused to release "his" resources to other branches.

Many like to build "what if" scenarios, what if Hitler had listened to OKW more, what if resources had been rationally allocated, what if ME262 had been a priority. All somewhat misses the point. Germany 1933-1945 was an insane, irrational regime. Speculating about rational behaviour during the war is impossible, a rational regime wouldn't have started in the first place.

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

Originally posted by Major Tom:

Like many militaries, the Waffen SS was indeed a political representation of an armed force. It was the most loyal and most fiersome formation in the German army during WWII. Much like Napoleon's Imperial Guard, and Hussain's Republican Guard, the Waffen SS was developed as a strong strike force, and bolstering force to keep the regular formations in line.

Disagree... French OG soldiers were an elite army force made from seasoned veterans, and never meant to be a political armed force for the regime.

OTOH, Waffen SS were purely volunteers, often not German (there were French Waffen SS on the Eastern Front...), it was a sort of parallel army to the Heer that Hitler (and others) ran as a counterforce to the Heer. They were better equipped and supplied, for example...

Originally the SS was a paramilitary force used in 34 by Himmler to eliminate the "old" SA structure. They evolved from there in a (still paramilitary) "political" branch, that ran the extermination/concentration camp, and a military branch, the Waffen SS.

[tss]

Mark IV wrote:

Originally a true elite, the qualifications and the 'cruits declined as the war ground on.

Here's what captain Y.P.I. Kaila wrote about the initial performance of the Wiking division. (This is from a report that he wrote in 1942 after returning to Finland):

"I noticed much bravery but almost no skill. The officer corps of Waffen-SS didn't train themselves with tactical questions! The combat and leading one's troops in battle were seen to be so simple that no special expertise would be necessary and Germanic bravery would be enough.

As I mentioned before, the war begun so soon that I didn't have opportunities to examine the combat training of the unit. Therefore my opinion on training in SS forces is based on the results, actions on the front, both on battlefield and outside of it. I got very poor picture on this; poor terrain use, short-sighted bravery, actual mania on gathering in large groups, non-existent fire control, companies were led by being a champion warrior, etc. On marches one of the basic requirements of motorized troops, driving discipline, was poor and the troop accommodation was impractical and unhygienic. I noticed significant signs of un-professionalism everywhere and true expertise was either not known or arrogantly belittled.

The lack of training was compensated, though with a bloody price, by common bravery and I hold the SS-troops in high regard in this respect. The discipline was faultless. I didn't observe a single occurrence where a man would have disobeyed any order from his squad leader, not even a displeasing or a highly dangerous one. A leader, especially an officer, could maintain his authority even better than what his rank in SS-Kameradscath would have required."

- Tommi

[Guest Space Thing]

Thanks to all who stood up for the French Old Guard. Hitler and Napoleon been compared all too often. Maybe it is because of the anti-Napoleon propoganda of the British that seems to continue through the ages.

Hitler left Germany in ashes while Napoleon contributed a lot to France AND Europe that helps them to thrive even today. Anyone ever wonder where the British Army would have been if England wasn't pre-occupied with France during the Napoleonic era?

I'm not against the British people. I love them. I just don't like the anachronism of a monarchy. C'mon now, is anyone MORE deserving than another to be a leader on this planet? No. We are all equal and the leadership of a nation that depends upon familial ties with the unnatural excuse of "divine right" s--ks.

Napoleon crowned himself as Emperor of the French only to make fun of the monarchies of the time. His very act said "See, anyone can do this." He was right, of course. Why else does anyone think that they hated him so?

So, thanks again for the defense of the Old Guard.

'Vive l"Empereur!'

[Major Tom]

Actually, I would dissagree about the Old Guard. If you read what happened during Napoleon's return (especially) you will see the Guard more like his personal guard (especially after their defeat at Waterloo). When the army collapsed, the Old Guard surrounded Napoleon to protect him. They were the most 'organized' formation left in his army, and most loyal to the Emperor (ie. only cracked once).

Sure, they may have been recruited differently (and more competently), but, their existence was for similar reasons (a force to guarantee the will of the Emperor will be met) and created the same problems that the existence of the Waffen SS did. Instead of draining equipment, the Old Guard drained seasoned officers. Since most of the best and experienced troops were in the Guard, the other formations suffered by poor NCO's.

Napoleon and Hilter are similar in their desire for conquest and improving their nation. Napoleon was much more 'enlightened', as he used the carrot over the stick in his occupation policies and never resorted to exterminationist desires. They CAN be compared in some aspects, but, comparison does not mean carbon copy.

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Juha Ahoniemi:

Mark IV,

A slight mix-up perhaps - there were many foreigners in waffen SS, less in Totenkopf I think.

Juha

[This message has been edited by Juha Ahoniemi (edited 02-21-2001).]

That's not correct, there was many foreigners in the Totenkopf units (which was assigned in the KZ), too.

About the Waffen-SS, they had some elite divisions like the normal Wehrmacht, too, but wasn't generally an Elite. Keep in mind, at the peak served 1 Million men in the Waffen-SS.

------------------

Keine Gefangenen!

Visit my Combat Mission Sound Mods site!

Scipiobase

Join the Blitzkrieg Wargaming Club

[Sirocco]

And just to muddy the waters further, Heer officers sometimes found themselves pressed into Waffen-SS Divisions, as did men from other branches of the German military...

------------------

"He belongs to a race which has coloured the map red, and all he wants are the green fields of England..."

- Joe Illingworth, Yorkshire Post War Correspondent

[Peter White]

Originally posted by Wisbech_lad:

Many like to build "what if" scenarios, what if Hitler had listened to OKW more, what if resources had been rationally allocated, what if ME262 had been a priority. All somewhat misses the point. Germany 1933-1945 was an insane, irrational regime. Speculating about rational behaviour during the war is impossible, a rational regime wouldn't have started in the first place.

I think most behavior, even that which are usually labelled "insane, irrational" acts, can be adequately explained as rational behavior based on incomplete information and/or narrow perspective.

IMO, to understand evil you must understand why people often _choose_ to have incomplete information and avoid broad perspectives. That is a big topic in itself.

To paraphrase a reporter who had interviewed Hitler in the 30s: "Hitler has the most complete library, all of it unused; he has made up his mind on everything."

Contrast this with Socrates who constantly claimed he understood very little. The Oracle at Delphi consequently labelled him the wisest man in the world.

I suspect Hitler had good reason to believe that his domestic enemies were more dangerous to him personally than Stalin's army. At least in 1941 and 1942 that made sense; therefore a guns & butter policy was reasonable. It may have made even more sense once the war turned for the worse. After all, there were assassination attempts were there not?

[Berlichtingen]

Originally posted by Wisbech_lad:

The SS were set up by Himmler & Heydrich as a counterbalance to the SD street thugs, (which the Heer demanded be liquidated IIRC).

Couple of points... the SD was part of the SS run by Heydrich... I believe you meant the SA. Also, it was Goering how founded the SS IIRC

[Guy w/gun]

Thanks all. Now, can anyone tell me what the Totenkopf was?

[Guest wwb_99]

Translation: Death's Head

------------------

Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus.

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

A few remarks with regards to other posts in this thread:

The early SS was fighting the SA (Sturmabteilungen - "Storm

Detachments"), not the SD (Sicherheitsdienst - "Security Service").

The SA were the brownshirts, the Nazi street organization. The SA are

an interesting subject to study, BTW, the first time in history that

creating a most braindead mob was the goal of a major engineering

effort (instead of just tuning existing mobs). The SA was a party

thing and powerful people used it agitate towards their own influence.

Most SS units were Hitler's personal troops and he used them to wipe

out the SA.

The SD was the inner secret service of the Nazi party and was part of

the SS.

The military doctrine of the Waffen-SS is also an interesting

experiment. You see much of the new command structure that Hitler

introduced into the new Wehrmacht leading structure here. Especially

his mistrust in the traditional army staff work, his idea that a

human's pure will can make good for a lot of other factors (such as

reality... sorry couldn't resist).

The training of the common soldiers had much more emphasis on sports

and physical condition instead of "real" military training. Of

course, education was more in the political direction than a tactical

one. Even more emphasis had be laid on comradeship respectively the

negative sides of it when inner-group mechanisms were using to shape

men (read: don't be an outsider or you're in for real trouble).

The commanders of Waffen-SS Units were often (not always) not only of

low military education, they were often outright stupid, although of

course with high loyalty and enough instinct to replace part of

thinking. These commanders were then given first-class

Chief-of-Staffs in the tradition of the Prussian army General Staff.

This is said to reflect Hitler's idea that for the commander it is

rather counter-productive to think deep and fiddle with numbers too

much, that causes hesitation. It is interesting to compare that to

Rommel's remarks about the General Staff (Rommel papers appendix),

although Rommel did not propose to use stupid commanders, he as well

mistrusted the statistics-oriented traditional officers. That may

explain some of the credit Rommel had from Hitler.

Were did the first-class staff people came from? In the Waffen-SS

everyone could become an officer, the other Wehrmacht branches

required the Abitur school degree, which was not easy to get (Anyone

knows whether that applied to field promotions as well?). Also, since

large formations were formed out of nowhere, many high-level posts were

available. Any Heer (Army) officer could except to get a better post

(and often higher rank). In fact, it is an expression of mistrust

that so few Heer officers took the chance.

Well, overall, what did you have: Commanders that stroke for the most

obvious target and were overambitious and troops that could run fast

but had no idea how to take cover (to oversimplify here). The result

was the high striking power of the Waffen-SS units. But the downside

were extreme losses. Even if you look at the early-war Waffen-SS

successes in France you see it. I don't think any other military

branch from the major war participants took so high losses in

successful battles.

The Waffen-SS was also known for war-crimes, especially killing

prisoners. In the early war out of over-tuned hate, in late war

because nothing must detract them from their task. Guarding or

leading back prisoners delays or weakens the advance and the Waffen-SS

had lower thresholds to cross to get rid of the problem than other

military formations.

The military successes were not only accompanied by high losses, but

in many cases also of disobedience. I.e. the taking Kharkov in March

1943 was done against Manstein's orders. It could be seen either as

an heroic act or else as leaving the post on the left flank the SS

units had to guard.

And one more word about the losses: of course that didn't mean men

only, but also equipment. That doesn't matter much if you advance and

following troops pick up your abandoned tanks, but on the retreat

things look differently. Granted, no SS tank commander would let his

vehicle fall into Soviet hands, but no matter how you see Hitler's

"will rules" theory, a dead man's will doesn't matter much no matter

how you put it. The SS units often got the extra-heavy equipment, to

Korps/Division's subunits not under special command like the Heer's

heavy tank detachments. Such subunits often took the heroic task of

"guarding the retreat" on their own, using the most heavy equipment

that would be difficult enough to retreat through mud even when you

are retreating in the middle of the column with maximum help.

The Waffen-SS was of course believed to be politically more reliable

and Waffen-SS units were used in places where the situation was more

complicated than simply "enemy or not". The best-known example is how

the SS Korps has been pulled out of the battle at Kursk to stabilize

the situation in Italy where they maybe had to fight the former

Italian allies.

In late war the SS was also used to incorporate foreign soldiers into

the German armed forces. So far, this looks to me like an act of

desperation, an expression of the fact that these countries didn't

contribute enough soldiers to form country-wide divisions and the Heer

didn't want them, so they went into the SS. Definitively a twisted

issue.

Regarding the term "Totenkopf": the term was used for different things

over time. In fact, the whole structure of the SS was changing

rapidly over the years, that is the major reasons why people can argue

so much about it. Often both are right, but for different time scales.

I am definitively not very competent here also. The basic history of

the "Totenkopf" - like named units is like this:

The early SS was (besides other things):

- guarding the concentration camps "Wachgruppe <region> der

Allgemeinen SS" - "Guard units <region> of the general SS"

- was a bodyguard to Hitler "Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler" -

"bodyguard SS Adolf Hitler"

The latter formation wiped out the SA (see above). Theodor Eicke, who

otherwise organized the concentration camp guarding system and

commanded the guards, commanded the Leibstandarte in this action and

received high promotions.

Eicke was ever struggling with Richard Heydrich, the leader of the SD

(see "secret service", see above), but (as historians put it)

Himmler, the leader of the SS as whole, followed a strict "divide and

rule" principle and always balanced the two so that neither could

eliminate the other.

The concentration camp guards (under Eicke) were officially named

"SS Totenkopfverbaende" ("death head formations") in 1936. I leave it

to the reader's assumptions what this public name means for the claims

that no-one knew what happened in the concentration camps, BTW.

The SS always had a military-grade armed unit named

"Verfuegungstruppen" - "Disposal troops".

Eicke trained his own troops to the extreme, especially mentally. It

was a punishment (!) that people who were not enthusiastically enough

in the Totenkopfverbaende were sent to the Verfuegungstruppen. And

that for a unit doing guard duty with rifles as opposed to a military

unit in a time were heavy weapons were beloved by everyone.

To reach the state that people felt the Totenkopf ->

Verfuegungstruppen transfer as a punishment he had no other means than

to claim that the Totenkopfverbaende were the utmost elite, no other

advantages were to expected from being in the Totenkopfverbaende. He

succeeded in turning the previously "unliked" duty of guarding the

camps into a feeling of "it is awful, but someone has to do it and we

are the ones who do the least liked task in the Reich for the

Fuehrer". And he did it by turning the upcoming systematic killing of

prisoners to the advantage, to increase the feeling that the young

guards were of utmost importance for Germany because no-one else would

do "the job". A prime example of how Nazidom worked.

In 1938 the existing five Totenkopf regiments were turned into three

"Totenkopfstandarten", the term has no other special meaning. At the same

time, control of the Totenkopf units somewhat shifted from Eicke to

Himmler and Hitler. Also the Heer (Army) leadership

had been grabbed by Hitler and he began to organzine the

military-quality SS formations into the armed forces more formally.

The Totenkopfverbaende (SSTV) did not become part of the armed forces

at that time, whereas the Verfuegungstruppen did. In case of war, the

SSTV were to transfer trained men to the Verfuegungstruppen, otherwise

they were the Nazi party's troops for the Reich's inner affairs.

Mid 1939 the SSTV (Totenkopfverbaende) still were equipped with arms

up to machine pistols and rifle only, whereas the Verfuegungstruppen

were full military with heavy weapons. The SSTV were organized in

regiment-sized formations named after regions in Germany. If you see

"SS <regionname>", you can assume that it is a part of the SSTV, not

some own SS branch.

In Poland, the SSTV followed the armed forces, giving replacements to

the Verfuegungstruppen and conducting tasks behind the front. The

SSTV in Poland contained of three regiments "SS Brandenburg", "SS

Oberbayern", "SS Thueringen", which were called "Einsatzgruppen" -

"employment groups" (?) in Poland and basically did what the

Einsatzgruppen later did in the Soviet union, only on a smaller scale

(not enough weapons?).

After Poland the SS divisions were formed:

- The "Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler" division

- The Verfuegungstruppen formed a division from three of their

regiments.

- The Totenkopfdivision

- A police division, containing former police members

Only then began formal military training, with help from the army.

After Poland, besides tactical and operational issues, the Totenkopf

Division is said to have problems with any other aspect of division

work, especially getting food and remembering that heavy weapons are

nice, but some resources should be spent in equipment to transport

them. Within 6 months and much determination the division rounded

their equipment and trained at a high pace, enough to impress Colonel

General Weichs of the Heer on April, 2nd 1940, especially with the

camouflage abilities (the Heer would later say the same thing about

the Red Army...).

From France onwards the Totenkopfdivision roughly stayed the same,

except that Eicke was killed on Feb, 26th, 1943, while the division

moved to participate in the action that is famous for the retake of

Kharkov in March 1943 and also because the SS units retook it against

orders. He was shot down in a plane that was about to land and didn't

see the camouflaged Russians below the landing approach.

The Totenkopfdivision was always different from the other SS

divisions. Especially, there was always an exchange of personal

between the front-line troops in the Totenkopfdivision and the

concentration camp guards, were transfer from the eastern front to the

camps was considered punishment. The line between the

Totenkopfdivision and the Einsatzgruppen is also very thin, many people

changed commanding positions in both organizations.

The early prisoner killings in France were on the Totenkopfdivision

account, as I think are most other major incidents of that kind (not

easy to check).

As opposed to what I said above about the SS formations, the

Totenkopfdivision even had a staff from military amateurs. As far as

my impression from autobiographies of German officers go, the

Totenkopfdivision never earned the respect for certain military

qualities that the other SS Panzer divisions gained.

If you ever want to educate yourself about the SS, I recommend the

following:

- If the reading is without a large emphasis on change over time, but

just a description of one organization state -> waste basket.

- The SS is extremely complex, even before the war it practically had

all things a whole state has. If you are in for understanding the

SS, the task is as big as understanding the whole of your countries

government system. Except that a lot of crap is being published on

the SS that detracts you from understanding, not to speak of

translation problems.

- SS formations that look alike may in fact be very different. As

described, the Totenkopf division is not just the third of the SS

Panzer divisions, it is special in many ways. I have no doubt other

Waffen-SS units are as different, just I didn't read a book about

it.

At least I have a very hard time to sort that mess out...

For the Totenkopf<anything> there is a book "Soldiers of Destruction"

by Charles Sydnor. Lots of information, but somewhat confuse and too

few information to see the TK in the larger context of the SS for my taste.

For the overall political structure and struggles of Nazi Germany I

recommend "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer.

It is especially strong when it comes to the conspirator groups around

Canaris and Stauffenberg. It has a few mistakes which can be

explained by the very early time is was written (1950).

I know no general SS book I can recommend. Not because they are all

crap, but I just don't know.

[This message has been edited by Martin Cracauer (edited 02-22-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Martin Cracauer (edited 02-22-2001).]

[von Lucke]

Originally posted by Scipio:

That's not correct, there was many foreigners in the Totenkopf units (which was assigned in the KZ), too.

Units like the 13th Waffen-Gebirgsdivision der SS Handschar, recruited from Yugoslavian Muslims: They wore the fez, with SS todtenkopf prominent, and were led in prayer by regimental imams!

There were also a couple of Slavic divisions / regiments in SS uniform (unter-menschen in SS livery? Heresey!). As the war ground on, Himmler's definition of what was acceptably Volksdeutsche grew looser and looser.

And as much as the SS would probably have liked to have been compared to the French Old Guard (or even the Middle or Young Guard!), there is no comparison. The FOG was an elite combat force (not politically motivated prison guards and executioners). Napoleon led the FOG into combat on several occasions --- can you name one instance of Himmler doing the same with the SS? The FOG were called grognards(means "grumblers") because they were the only unit to earn the right to talk smack to Napoleon. Don't hear much about the SS questioning Hitler's orders, do you?