Guy w/gun Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 They are the exact same as regular Grenadiers. The "volks" was added late in the war to bolster moral in "the peoples" army. They are not to be confused with the volkstrum. The home guard made up of old men and children. Lorak ------------------ "Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking."--William Butler Yeats Cesspool Combatmissionclub Lorak's FTX and for Kitty's sake =^..^= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Peoples infantryman or some such thing is the litteral translation. Basically just tail end of the war German infantry. They tended to have a fair number MP42 or MP44 weapons per squad than the old timie 1939-43 infantry squads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 The 'new' German Infantry Division OOB, created due to shortages of such weapons as 10,5cm/15cm Howitzers, I.G.s and even PaKs. Hitler’s personal flourish was the Volk bit that he felt would goad the German populous into a bit of ancient Germanic woodman frenzy aka “I am Seigfreid!” or “By the power of Greyskull!” Hitler was big on the idea of fanatism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 “By the power of Greyskull!” heh heh...what you been watchin' "HE-MAN and THE MASTERS of the UNIVERSE" or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 The name itself means "People's Grenadiers". It was meant to be a morale booster for the flagging German troop and population's will to fight. Lots of things got all sorts of spiffy new names around 1944 for the same reason. Volksgrenadiers were nothing more than a transitional infantry formation inbetween the Pattern 44 and Pattern 45 infantry divisions. This was a change made necessary by the HUGE losses in the East after Operation Bagration and the lack of readily available traditional equipment. Most commonly, motorized transport and heavy weapons. They also were much weaker in terms of overall number of men, but sought to maximize infantry strength by economizing rear unit support units. To make up for this they boosed the number of automatic small arms. Some Pattern 44 divisions were converted so as to free up men and material for other units. When the Pattern 45 divisions were made they kept the high number of automatic weapons, but did not break them out as seperate platoons like in the Volksgrenadier divisions. The backbone of the armaments was supposed to be the Sturmgewehr (MP44), but supply problems kept most from being deployed into combat. Some estimates are that only 1/3 of the 400k+ StG44 that were produced never were issued. Doh! In any case, very few full Pattern 45 infantry units were created because of the chaos of the final weeks of the 3rd Reich. Volkssturm are semi-ad hoc formations of generally unfit (too young, too old, not physically able) men conscripted on short notice to defend a particular, local sector. Hitler Youth formations were often a large part of these formations. Some fought VERY well, like in East Prussia, but most were of dubious military value. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Ive recently discovered (dont laugh...much) that the "grenadiere" bit in all types of infantry from the Napoleonic times meant basically "Rifle men". Now, why is this? I always thought (ok, laugh at me if you want) that Grenadiere had something to do with grenades. Anyone care to explain? ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Originally posted by The Commissar: Ive recently discovered (dont laugh...much) that the "grenadiere" bit in all types of infantry from the Napoleonic times meant basically "Rifle men". Now, why is this? I always thought (ok, laugh at me if you want) that Grenadiere had something to do with grenades. Anyone care to explain? It is from earlier than that. European armies had a broad range of types of soldiers. Grenadiers dealt with explosives. Cannons and handguns at one time were one and the same, then slip, so grenadiers got the handgun and the hand bomb, while canoniers got the big guns and the seige weapons. Soon the canoniers were split into engineer and cannonier, and the grenadiers became a whole bunch of classifications of infantry, from light infantry on. A grenadier was a heavy infantryman who did not carry a big pike. So the root comes from the gun powders. At various times grenadier means some sort of special infantryman, and it is not always the same from country to country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Oberst Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 The organization of Volksgrenadier divisions took place in the summer of 1944. After heavy fighting in the East and the Allied invasion, the Reich leadership undertook an attempt to organize all available reserves of fighting power and use them to wage war. The plan was to establish the infantry divisions into special elite units by marrying good personnel and optimal armament (as was available at the time). The plan was to equip the rifle companies with the MP 44 Sturmgewehr SMG as well as the self loading G 43 carbine. The command personnel was to be filled with experienced and battle-tested officers and NCO's that commanded men of the youngest age group (17 yrs+) Large numbers of men were supplied by the Luftwaffe and the Navy. The remainders of shattered infantry divisions from the front(s) were used to form the core of the divisions, which were typically renamed Volksgrenadier divisions, often retaining the original infantry division unit numbers. These units were placed under Himmler's supervision. Training was similar to the Wehrmacht, with the addition of "political training" where special leadership officers were used (more or less like the Russian political commissars). Shortages of materials and weapons meant that no two VGD were outfitted the same. The goal was sufficient mobility, and as much firepower as possible the the minimum personnel and weapons. AT effectiveness was to be increased in particular. "Typical" VGD structure: Division staff: Normal ID staff with field police troop, intelligence platoon, engineer platoon, cycle platoon. Infantry: 3 grenadier regiments with 2 batallions each Regimental included regimental staff, one infantry gun company with one heavy gun platoon (15 cm) and three light platoons (7.5 cm). One motorized Panzerjaeger company with 3 7.5cm Pak 40 platoons. Where Pak guns were missing, a tank destroyer troop was formed with Panzerschreks to replace them. A grenadier batallion consisted of batallion staff and intelligence echelon. Three or four rifle companies with three platoons. Typically two of the three platoons were equipped with MP 44's. Bwyond this companies posessed 9 LMGs, a sharpshooter group and an AT group armed with Panzerfaust and hollow charge ammunition. Occasionally, a group of 8cm mortars were added. The last company, a so-called heavy company, had two platoons of heavy machine guns (usually MG 42 on tripod mounts), 6 8cm mortars, 4 12cm mortars, and a number of light 5cm mortars (I have seen counts as high as 34). Usually also an artillery regiment with three light units and one heavy unit with supporting staff units (weathe, maps, intel, etc). The first two Light units consisted of two batteries of four 10.5cm howitzers, while the heavy unit consisted of two batteries of 4 15cm howitzers. The last Light unit usually consisted of 6 Pak 40 7.5cm guns or captured Russian 7.62cm guns. Panzerjaegers units could be 1 company of Pak 40 7.5cm guns or Russian 7.62cm guns, as well as 1 company of 10 assault guns or Hetzer TDs, and an AA company with nine 3.7cm or 12 2cm AA guns either self-propelled or towed. Additionally, there was typically: 1 engineer batallion with only two companies 1 communications group with telephone and radio companies 1 field replacement batallion 1 supply troop Before the flames get too hot, these were the "planned" dispositions. No-one needs reminding that this was rarely, if ever, achieved. ------------------ To the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee... [This message has been edited by Herr Oberst (edited 01-25-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Hey Commissar, I laugh WITH you, as I always thought it had something to do with Grenades also. Thanks for the informative thread guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Trivia quiz time - What was Volksturm coming from Prussia called? They had a seperate title (for historical reasons, no others).....what was it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Steve, when you implement the optional rarity price system in CM2, will this new system reflect the fact that an Elite Volksturm unit is an oxymoron? Seriously, the price for such a unit ought to be infinitely high since, in reality, elites never existed. ------------------ Jeff Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Herr Oberst, good post. Only wanted to point out that the "political" aspect was pretty much ignored. So was the "elite" bit too. Some of these Volksgrenadier divisions were indeed VERY good, some were not so good. Sorta like any other standard formation of the time. There is a misconception by some that these units were all underarmed, undermanned, and lacking experience. Not true. Michael, DAMN! You have me stumped. That is hard to do I will probably slap my forehead and say "DOH!" when you finally say what it is, but I'll wait nicely here while others guess Juardis, right now we don't even allow anything above Regular Volkssturm (I think). So it doesn't matter how much chash you got, you ain't gettin better In the East, I would put the few units that were outstanding in their class at probably Regular rating. By this point in the war, that was a compliment, ESPECIALLY for a Volkssturm unit. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Trivia quiz time - What was Volksturm coming from Prussia called? They had a seperate title (for historical reasons, no others).....what was it? I'll venture a guess... Landsturm, or possibly Landwehr BTW, Volksgrenadier was originally an honorific given to veteran infanty divisions. IIRC, this dates back to 1942. The division that was defending Omaha (forgot the number) was one such 'Volksgrenadier' division. It led the Allied planners into under etimating their quality. Divisions like this should not be confused with the divisions formed as 'Volksgrenadier'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Originally posted by Berlichtingen: I'll venture a guess... Landsturm, or possibly Landwehr BTW, Volksgrenadier was originally an honorific given to veteran infanty divisions. IIRC, this dates back to 1942. The division that was defending Omaha (forgot the number) was one such 'Volksgrenadier' division. It led the Allied planners into under etimating their quality. Divisions like this should not be confused with the divisions formed as 'Volksgrenadier'. Dunno the 352 Volksgrenadier Div aka Normandy 352 Inf div did not do as well during the Bulge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Originally posted by Bastables: Dunno the 352 Volksgrenadier Div aka Normandy 352 Inf div did not do as well during the Bulge. The 352nd had the honorific 'Volksgrenadier at Normandy. The VG Div that fought during the Bulge was hardly the same quality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Originally posted by Berlichtingen: The 352nd had the honorific 'Volksgrenadier at Normandy. The VG Div that fought during the Bulge was hardly the same quality Now I understand and am corrected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurtz Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Originally posted by Big Time Software: Juardis, right now we don't even allow anything above Regular Volkssturm (I think). So it doesn't matter how much chash you got, you ain't gettin better It's possible to have Elite Volkssturm. Perhaps not historically correct, though... ------------------ SS-Weihnachtsgrenadiere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Originally posted by Big Time Software: Juardis, right now we don't even allow anything above Regular Volkssturm (I think). Steve I have seen veteran Volksstrum. . . WWB ------------------ Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say, Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juardis Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Originally posted by Kurtz: It's possible to have Elite Volkssturm. Perhaps not historically correct, though... I guess that means they've lived longer and hence are elite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 I have seen veteran Volksstrum. . . WWB No that's not correct, Volksstrum can only go up to Regular in experience, they have their own force category. Volksgrenadiers are under Heer and can have the whole range of experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy w/gun Posted January 25, 2001 Author Share Posted January 25, 2001 Thanks all. I knew that "Volks" translated to people, but was confused because there's also the volkstrum. Also I took "grenadier" literally. So I wondered why there was a civilian grenade-throwing squad !!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Trivia quiz time - I'll venture a guess... Landsturm, or possibly Landwehr Correct. Would you believe for the life of me I now can't remember which of the two is correct? But it was definitely land-something. I'll check it out more at home. But Steve knows the answer, he is hitting his forehead right now and will reveal the answer before I get the chance. Steve? Ummm...Steve? ------------------ <A HREF="http://wargames.freehosting.net/cmbits.htm http://members.home.net/canuckmain/ http://highlanders.freehosting.net/" TARGET=_blank>http://wargames.freehosting.net/cmbits.htm http://members.home.net/canuckmain/ http://highlanders.freehosting.net/</A> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schugger Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 Landwehr is the correct term. Prussia formed the Landwehr units to avoid a term in Tilsit peace treaty where they were forced to reduce the number of the standing army. The Landwehr consisted of reservists of the former "line" regiments as well as militia, so quality among Landwehr units may have differed greatly ( I don't know as I wasn't there, then ). Large numbers of the Prussian army in the 1813/14 campaign were Landwehr units and also in the Waterloo campaign ( I think at least one Corps was entirely Landwehr ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 26, 2001 Share Posted January 26, 2001 Thank you! Great info. Next time I ask a trivia question I'll try to know the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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