Handheld AT vs. infantry - what's the point?

[Sven]

My German infantry just wasted one of their only two Panzerfausts on American infantry, why would they do that?

[Renaud]

I think this was not unheard of. They are kind of big and lunky...if I were under fire I might be tempted to use them for the extra explosive firepower and just to get rid of them if no tanks were spotted. Maybe it's related to the infantry experience level.

Renaud

[von Lucke]

Panzerfausts could be used against infantry --- there was an fragmentation "ring" attached to the warhead for this purpose. (Just think of 'fausts as big ol' rifle grenades, if it makes it easier for ya). When under pressure, German infantry squads in CM will often use them against other infantry targets.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Why would they do that? To try to stay alive. Large numbers of fausts were undoubtedly fired at enemy infantry, especially in buildings or bunkers but anywhere being possible. Same is true for bazooka rounds.

The Germans built and issued 7 *million* panzerfausts in the last 2 years of WW II. There were only ~200,000 allied AFVs, so there were ~35 fausts for every Allied AFV. Most AFVs that were killed, were killed by other AFVs or dedicated anti-tank guns, because those were the things that could kill them at range and reliably.

There was a definite abundance of fausts, and their use was limited by when anything came into range. (Their *effective* range is only about half the listed or maximum range, thus ~50 yards for the best late-war models).

Most fausts were never fired at all, simply because most of them were issued to men who never got that close to anything enemy, period. Whenever there was an enemy within effective range, it would seem sensible to use the darn thing. It made a big bang, like throwing a larger grenade with a rocket assist.

What, you think the average WW II infantryman *wanted* to get <50 yards from an enemy tank? - LOL.

[Gremlin]

Officially, at least, German troops were advised not to waste them on infantry:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/014827.html

"All these close combat weapons have hardly any fragmentation effect. They weren’t made for shooting at infantry! Rather, think: every Faust round is for a tank."

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[Mr. Clark]

In the book A Bridge Too Far, I remember a German squad firing one or two at a British squad holed in a building.

In Saving Private Ryan (just a movie, I know), Ryan and Miller kill a Schreck-man just before he fires into their hidy-hole.

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"Fear is for the enemy...

Fear and Bullets."

[Guest wwb_99]

Its pretty simple actually.

1) I am being shot at

2) I am being shot at from behind that stone wall.

3) My Mauser/MP-40/MP-44 is useless against the stone wall

4) But my panzerfaust is

5) Boom. 2' hole in stone wall.

WWB

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Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus.

[The Commissar]

In my experience, the fausts dont cause a lot of damage, but rather suppress the enemy infantry. The higher the experience level of your German troops, the more they will use their fausts, whether for armor or for infantry.

In one of my PBEM's, this backfired on the enemy who had two Veteran German platoons in a heavy building, firing at my disorganized and badly battared forces in the opposite buildings. I thought I was about to break, but then one genious fired a faust. The building goes into flames, and all his troops run out of the burning building and into a meatgrinder. My opponent yelled a good bit after that, LOL

So, in conclusion, be careful about high experience German troops in town battles. They can be their own worst enemy.

Cheers!

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[JoePrivate]

Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net:

What, you think the average WW II infantryman *wanted* to get <50 yards from an enemy tank? - LOL.

The voice of reason! Many CM commanders will gladly and repeatedly order their cyber-troops to within that range. There was even a thread awhile ago where a command was requested which in effect would allow troops to pursue an AFV so it wouldn't get away, lol.

[Gremlin]

Taxi, follow that StuG!

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[Mr. Clark]

ROFLMAO!

Hilarious Gremlin!

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"Fear is for the enemy...

Fear and Bullets."

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Indeed. People, you have to realize what having a faust meant to Hans. It meant he was expect to go get killed the instant an Allied tank clanked within sight. If he had already used the thing on those dang grenade-tossing infantrymen over there, then guess what? When an Allied tank clanked into range, Hans could grab dirt or skedaddle, just like everybody else.

[The Commissar]

Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net:

Indeed. People, you have to realize what having a faust meant to Hans. It meant he was expect to go get killed the instant an Allied tank clanked within sight. If he had already used the thing on those dang grenade-tossing infantrymen over there, then guess what? When an Allied tank clanked into range, Hans could grab dirt or skedaddle, just like everybody else.

I think youre putting that a bit strongly, Jason. It was expected of them to use the fasut as an anti-tank, but I doubt seeing one resulted in abandoning everything you are doing (like saving your hide) and engaging the tank right then and there.

I assume men were trained to use them with some caution, like from cover and not being shot at (in the best circumstances). Of course, approaching a 30 ton machine, which you just witnessed blowing the rest of your comerads to hell, close enough to use a faust would make anybody nervous and unwilling.

I believe, however, that some of these fears were unfounded. I am under the impression that you couldnt see much out of a buttoned tanks, and lets face it, in the heat of battle most tankers would seal their hatches.

Thus, I assume one could get off a shot and dissapear into the brush without having it shoot you up. When infatry comes into play, thats a whole 'nother story, however.

Can anyone back this up, or am I missing something?

Cheers!

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Wesreidau]

Excerpt from "Company Commander" by Charles B. Macdonald (WWII US Company CO in the Bulge and drive on Germany)

"Tracer bullets criss-crossed the open fields on either side of the road. ANOTHER Pannzerfaust shell exploded in the midst of the F Company platoons"

There yer go guys, at least some historical evidence to back up the use of Fausts against enemy infantry. In the engagement above the Germans were counter-attacking 2 US Companies and used fausts against F Company on at least 3 occasions.

Another ref:

"A shell from a Panzerfaust burst in the center of the highway ahead of me. Fragments sprayed the trees on eiter side of the road, and I dropped face down to the ground"

A VERY potent supression weapon at times. BTW, it was pure chance that I came across this engagement at the same time as reading this thread, but hopefully it helps Sven understand why the use of Fausts against infantry was programmed in to the TAC AI by BTS.

[Pacestick]

We train our infantry to fire their LAWs(66mm hollow charge anti tank rockets) at trees, walls or rocks in the vicinity of enemy infantry. The exit produces splinters which can cause casualties but the main reason is that there is nothing more demoralizing in combat than HE going off in your vicinity especially during the contact drill phase of any clash.

It stands to reason that shrecks, fausts, piats and zook rounds were used for the same reasons during the big one.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

"some of these fears were unfounded"

Oh, I think the theory of the guys issuing them to everyone was clear enough. It was that Germany could afford one dead soldier for every Allied tank easily. Or two, even. And if they provided 35 fausts, then 3-5% of those who received them might be willing to go get themselves killed, killing an enemy tank. If so, there would not be any Allied tanks left.

But there were Allied tanks left, and plenty of them. And easily 3/4 of the Allied tanks knocked out, were knocked out by other tanks, TDs, or towed AT guns. In other words, be weapons that could do it from a long enough range to have a high chance of survival afterward.

But the brute facts of Hans' dilemma can be easily stated, for anyone who thinks I am being too blunt. The Germans issued 7 million Panzerfausts and offered Knight's Crosses and two weeks of leave to anyone who bagged a single Allied tank. The Allies still had fleets of the things left at the end of the war. The U.S. and Russian combined, built less than 200,000 AFVs in the entire war.

The conclusion is inescapable. Your average Hans simply did not want to be a dead hero. Who can blame him?

[Brian Rock]

In Gantner's autobiography "Roll Me Over" he talks about being shot at by German

"bazookas" (his term) while stuck in a field. Apparently none too happy about it, either - it seems they were somewhat outraged at it about the time.

[tss]

jasoncawley@ameritech.net wrote:

Most AFVs that were killed, were killed by other AFVs or dedicated anti-tank guns, because those were the things that could kill them at range and reliably.

In right conditions infantry could cause very heavy losses to advancing tanks with fausts and schrecks, in small time.

At Ihantala, men of Finnish JR 12 (Infantry Regiment) destroyed almost 50 tanks and assault guns in two days. However, this was an exceptional case that was possible for the following reasons:

1) The area was forested with few roads and the tank-killers had good cover.

2) The Soviet commanders had lied to their superiors about their infantry casualties. As the high command didn't know the true strength of the attacking army corps, they didn't reinforce it and ordered the tanks to attack without sufficient infantry support.

3) JR 12 was pretty much an elite unit.

What, you think the average WW II infantryman *wanted* to get <50 yards from an enemy tank?

Not an average man, that's certain. An average man would prefer at least ~5000 yards between him and a tank. However, there were exceptional men who went far beyond average. One Finnish veteran that I spoke with last Summer characterized those men as:

There were men who feared nothing and who were always doing something until they got themselves killed.

For example, Heimo Vinni destroyed 5 Soviet tanks in one battle at Kuuterselkä, Eero Seppänen destroyed 7 in one day at Siiranmäki, and Ville Väisänen 8 at Ihantala.

Of these three, only Seppänen survived the war and, IIRC, he was wounded. Both Vinni and Väisänen were killed while tank-stalking. Seppänen and Väisänen received Mannerheim's Crosses, the highest military award in Finland.

But yes, in open terrain few men were courageous (or stupid) enough to wait until tanks were in faust or shreck range and the same holds for covered terrain, also.

- Tommi

[This message has been edited by tss (edited 02-07-2001).]

[Skipper]

Soviet tankers by the end of the war feared "fausts" most of all (to be sure, they called any german RPG that way). An impression one gets from late war accounts is that fausts claimed about half, if not more, of soviet armor losses.

The picture was probably different on the Western Front, where the fighting was not so agressive, in general.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net:

"sThe Germans issued 7 million Panzerfausts and offered Knight's Crosses and two weeks of leave to anyone who bagged a single Allied tank.

I'd be interested in your source for this. The standard decoration for single handed destruction of an enemy AFV was the Panzervernichtungszabzeichen - you can see them in the movie Cross of Iron - they are the silver strips on the right sleeve, with the black panzer in the middle. One silver badge for each tank knocked out, one gold for every five.

The Knight's Cross was not, as far as I know, awarded specifically for the destruction of enemy AFVs - they had a very specific award for that feat already! As one of the highest awards for combat bravery, I fail to believe that it would be handed out for the "mere" act of destroying an enemy tank, as this was a very standard feat of arms (in comparion to the acts of many Ritterkreuztraeger) as evidenced by the number of Tank Destruction Badges seen in period photos.

While the Knight's Cross was not just awarded for bravery in battle (it was also a leadership award and could be given to a unit commander based on the performance of his unit), I would be interested in knowing if it was truly downgraded to the level of what amounts to a marksmanship badge.

There is a tendency to believe that German awards were given out with more frequency as the war came to a close, because the Germans were losing. According to leaders in the field of German combat medals, this was not actually the case - see Ailsby's book.

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[This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 02-07-2001).]

[jshandorf]

Originally posted by von Lucke:

Panzerfausts could be used against infantry --- there was an fragmentation "ring" attached to the warhead for this purpose. (Just think of 'fausts as big ol' rifle grenades, if it makes it easier for ya). When under pressure, German infantry squads in CM will often use them against other infantry targets.

This ring was only found in the PF 150, which only 100,00 were made by March of '45 and not that many actually reached the hands of the German soldiers.

Jeff

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First of all, David, you stupid sot, if names were meant to be descriptive, everyone would have the, culturally appropriate, name of, "Ugly little purple person that cries and wets itself." -Meeks.

[Banshee]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I'd be interested in your source for this.

In the book SOLDAT the author speaks of Hitler Youths running around with Panzerfausts trying to bag a tank so that they could collect an Iron Cross. It was in the closing days of the war though, so it definetly wasnt a the norm. I have heard about the 2 week vacation being issued as well, but I am trying to remember the book. I think these were different awards for different times in the war (and different fronts, the Iron Cross story was in Berlin, so only vs Russians).

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[Michael Dorosh]

The Iron Cross I can see - not to sound like a jerk, but the Knight's Cross was a higher grade than the Iron Cross - you had

Iron Cross 2nd Class

Iron Cross 1st Class

Knight's Cross

The German Cross in Gold could also be awarded after the 1st Class was awarded. You had to have the Second Class to get the First, had to have the First to get the KC.

The Second Class was a fairly common award numbering, IIRC, in the millions. I can see giving one for a tank.

I own the Soldat series as well - I wrote the first volume of the Canadian companion to that series, actually. Not a bad little handbook.

I'll have to look it up when I get home; thanks for the clarification.

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[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

The Second Class was a fairly common award numbering, IIRC, in the millions. I can see giving one for a tank.

The 2nd class was given for generally good service. The first class (at least until early 1944) for something special. My grandfather has both - the second one he received for performing critical FOO service during a rear-guard defense on the retreat from Leningrad in March 1944.

Cherbourg and Brest were two cases where I have read Iron Crosses were handed out to all and sundry during the defense. Erich Kuby writes about that in his Brest-Tagebuch (Brest-diary) - apparently he did not get one, because he did not pretend to enjoy the experience, and did quite openly disagree with Ramcke's idea of defending to the last.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Michael Dorosh]

You could also get the EK for leadership - some were given on allotment basis, as you describe. And I forgot to mention you could get the EK II and I concurrently on rare occasions.

I still personally hold the award in high esteem - esepcially the EK I. I think 1 in 4 German soldiers had the II Class, but the First Class was a mark of distinction.

But you're just an uberman, Germanboy!

I still find it amazing that so many German fortresses on the Channel coast held out until VE Day. Would be quite interested in reading an account of life in one of the garrisons; sounds like your book recommendation would be a winner.