Sd Kfz 7/1 flak...

[The Codfather]

OK, I know that this vehicle's high survival rate against tanks has been discussed (and I believe it was due to the AIs difficulty in deciding whether or not to use HE or AT rounds, but this is ridiculous!!! :mad:

I am just playing a certain scenario that gives you a couple of CRACK bazookas, and they targetted the Sd Kfz 7/1 from a distance of less than 50m. The Sd Kfz 7/1 survived 10 AT rounds from the bazookas without a scratch, and wasted my zooks one at a time over the course of two turns...

What gives??? :confused:

I had played this scenario earlier and was able to take out two Tigers with the second shot each time, yet I can't take out the bloody flak-vehicle...

Anyone else see this behaviour?

Must be a bug or something...

[jgdpzr]

HE and MGs are the key to defeating that bad boy. 'Zooks do little because there is no armor to penetrate and since the vehicle is completely open, the effect of the shaped charge is practically nil. If you can bring it under the fire of the Ma Deuce or anything firing HE, it will be toast. Mortars and other artillery are also very effective.

[KiwiJoe]

The AI only uses the blast rating of an AT weapon agianst these unarmoured death machines. Thus the bakooka is trying to land a shot NEAR the flak truck and knock it out with the blast. Of course the blast on a bakooka is 6 so basically they cant hurt them. Dont play any games with these units in... they are 1 big giant steaming bug

[Abbott]

Any updates or new opinions on this issue?

[Warmaker]

Personally, I hate using those things. Anyone that can urinate can destroy one of those things, IMHO.

[Ron]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Warmaker:

Personally, I hate using those things. Anyone that can urinate can destroy one of those things, IMHO. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, a wet sneeze and they are abandoned or knocked out, usually by Rifle or MG fire. Though more than likely direct HE should be looked at from the many comments here, but a high survival rate it doesn't have lol.

Ron

[ 05-05-2001: Message edited by: Ron ]

[Redwolf]

I started a thread about possible improvements in the kill mechanism for these vehicles some time ago "kill chance of armoured vs. unarmoured vehicles" or so.

Basically I think that the chance it knock it out with HE shell is modeled too low. It seems that direct hit is not tried, only near hits in the ground. Hits from AT rounds should cause immobility or damaged gun more often, while it us probably OK that they have difficulty knocking it out with one hit.

On the other hand, the bazooka model sounds right to me. A bazooka is not effective against an unarmoured vehicle, except for its blast value. And to cause that blast value, you had to hit something hard like the ground, AFAIK a bazooka round would just go through thin metal, seats and such.

Yesterday I had a fun game against 4x SdKfz 7/2, SMGs, Pueppchen and 75mm infantry guns. The Flak vehicles were gone in no time, two from rifle squads, two from mortars. Just don't try to get after them in Hellcats.

[sturmtiger101]

Hello all. I understand that some fellows on this forum consider the use of these vehicles as " gamey ", however, I do choose them at times in QB and if a scenario includes one, I'm glad to have it. They do die quickly if the right weapon is employed against them, but if I keep them well back from the " line " and keep'em moving then they seem quite effective . I don't think I'd choose one when playing a human opponent due to the current controversy, but against the AI... well, sometimes I just want to have fun and to heck with the historical accuracy!

Cheers,

Eric

[Redwolf]

A problem with *not* choosing it is that if you are after historical play, the Allies should have airplanes. And if they have, the Axis player should have flak. On the offensive, you need a flak vehicle, not a towed gun. And the Wirbelwind/Ostwind are too expensive and eat up your armour points, while not being very good against real tanks.

I'd say using the 7/1 should be fair enough and you don't need to use it agressivly against Allied infantry and light armour. Except in self-defense, which requires that the Allied player accepts the necessity of the vehicle and expects the due risk when overrunning so-assumed helpless behind-front elements of the Axis force.

[FFE]

Sd Skf 7/2's are not easy to KO if used properly. I always keep mine isolated, away from infantry 200+ meters behind my main line and always on the move. Infantry will try to use small arms fire on 7/2's, even up to 400 meters which is crazy because they have no chance of knocking out a 7/2 at that range. Keep 7/2's away from woods thus preventing an airburst KO.

7/2's carry the same ammo load out as 37mm flak. 7/2's are cheaper than 37mm Flak. The AI runs the 7/2's out of danger, too.

I rarely lose my 7/2's in combat versus players. Not sure why anyone would take the 7/1 over the 7/2. The difference is but 2 points and the 37mm on the 7/2 is far superior.

[Skipper]

I've played two tcp games where my opponent had these things. He placed them on top of a hill overlooking the field and fired away. Light tanks dont cut it. Riflemen from afar dont cut it. MGs from afar - well, two MG1917 shooting from the top floor position, 700 m took 4 or 5 turns and wasted about a third of their ammo to kill one of those. They are also easy pickings for mortars, firing indirect (mortars firing direct are, in turn, easy pickings for them).

[Fred]

well,

after all this talk about the 'invulnerability' and 'gamey' issues I did some test runs.

This thingie is dead meat if zooks fire on it from a decent range (50-100 m); it is dead meat if a .50 halftrack opens up; it is dead meat if infantry opens up with small arms fire.

Ok, it survives some hits from tanks, but after 27 seconds, my Stuart kills it.

It is tougher than in 1.05, but not invincible.

Fred

[Skipper]

Problem with the stuart is that it kills the Stuart first. I am talking about 7/2 version, and talking from personal, painful (ouch!) experience.

Problem with infantry is that properly deployed 7/2 is covered by infantry. It has a very decent rate of fire and firepower.

[ 05-05-2001: Message edited by: Skipper ]

[dalem]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by redwolf:

A problem with *not* choosing it is that if you are after historical play, the Allies should have airplanes...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"should" is a tad too strong. The Allies were much more likely to have some close air support at most times portrayed in the game, of course, but it didn't happen that way every time for every battle.

For smaller battles having CAS is actually fairly inappropriate (but a ton of fun).

-dale

[FFE]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fred:

This thingie is dead meat if zooks fire on it from a decent range (50-100 m); it is dead meat if a .50 halftrack opens up; it is dead meat if infantry opens up with small arms fire.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

100 meters? Course they're going die. They are best used at 200+ meters, up to whatever the map can support. They're so accurate you don't need to be close.

[Fred]

FFE.

we are talking about zooks, not LAWs...

'Regular' zooks need some 100 m to hit flat...

Fred

[-=reef=-]

Ive played a game where a Sdkfz 7/2 sat behind bocage took out 7 M5A1 which means 14 MGs spraying it with fire and did jack .

And a little off topic but keeping with the inf AT weps thing. I read an account of a soldier of the 7th Green howards in normandy who stuck the butt end of his PIAT in the ground and used it as a mortar to take on german infantry quite succesfully (he lived to write the account) be nice if this was portrayed in the game Also be nice if the PIAT's loader used a rifle to help gun down attacking inf instead of just sitting there when out of PIAT ammo.

[Warmaker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by -=reef=-:

Ive played a game where a Sdkfz 7/2 sat behind bocage took out 7 M5A1 which means 14 MGs spraying it with fire and did jack .

And a little off topic but keeping with the inf AT weps thing. I read an account of a soldier of the 7th Green howards in normandy who stuck the butt end of his PIAT in the ground and used it as a mortar to take on german infantry quite succesfully (he lived to write the account) be nice if this was portrayed in the game Also be nice if the PIAT's loader used a rifle to help gun down attacking inf instead of just sitting there when out of PIAT ammo.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, boy, why do I see SPR scenes of guys hurling mortar rounds like grenades and taking out whole platoons with no sweat and the enemy rushing headlong regardless?

Watch what you wish for on the loader to "gun down attacking inf" thing. All 'zook/PIAT/PzSchreck units in CMBO are 2 man teams. War is a give and take relationship you know.

But here's my suggestion: Allow these AT teams to carry carbines/rifles as secondary weapons when they run out of main weapon rounds. What do you guys think?

[Radar]

I don't think these are modeled right. I don't see how with the ROF that is comming out of the weapon system that it could fire oblequely while on the move. I would think that it would be like a cherry picker without stabilizer blocks(whatyamacallit). IMHO, any firing other than directly in line with the rear could disable the moving vehicle.

[ 05-07-2001: Message edited by: Radar ]