infantry vs. x2 (300 per cent) armour attack and anti tank force option?

[kunstler]

I've played a number of battles against human opponents now and found that every battle, irregardless of who is playing defense, results in the defender losing.

It just seems to work out that way without fail. So I tried to hone my defensive skills vs. the computer.

I've found repelling German armour assaults vs. human picked infantry forces (1000 pt to 1500 pt) rather interesting. I can win almost all the time against a regular assault and have repelled the jerries at +100, but at 300 per cent forces (the recommended attack/def ratio), I just can't hold the field.

I can inflict damages enough to cause the game to be a draw even tho i lose victory locations, but not repel the enemy.

The enemy troops seem endless. I've started thinking it just ain't doable.

Anyone found otherwise? I'd be even more interested in knowing if anyone has repelled a +200 (300 per cent) german force with computer picked infantry forces (any allied nation).

I find computer picked infantry vs. armour utterly hopeless. At most you get 1 or two guns and some piats. Your guys just get used as mulch.

Any armchair Patton able to pull this off? :eek:

Which brings me to wonder:

Would it be accurate/feasible to add an

'anti tank' option to the force choices?

I'd like to try sending armour against computer controlled +200 anti-tank forces in quick battles in CM 2. =)

kunstler

[Mr. Johnson--]

Is it legal if we win a 2000 point defense?

[Mr. Johnson--]

I tried a 2000 pnt defense against axis armor attacker with +200%. It brought a new meaning to disenagration.

Farm, mod trees, mod hills. I bought 2 US Rifle Companies. 4 76mm, 3 57mm, 1 105mm, 1 90mm. 2 4.2in FOs

It was not pretty, I managed one tank kill per gun. My infantry and FOs managed to get kill more infantry than we lost, but after I surrendered on turn 25 with all of my units routed or dead, the Germans still had like 500 infantry ready to fight.

I know I could do better, but like I said, it brings a new meaning to disenagration.

[Username]

I think the present game is very attacker friendly. If CMBB comes through with MGs effectiveness, etc, then maybe more realistic battles can be represented. The attacker has just too much info due to spotting/IDing etc.

[kunstler]

Seems an apt description.

I have upped the number of kills per gun by narrowing their field of fire to a long, narrow strip, like a bishop in chess, always aiming from an oblique angle.

I've tried it gentle slopes, mod trees, village, clear and dry, along with flat (same), and gentle (with light trees).

Usually get Canucks with 4 17 pndr or so, 4 smaller anti tank guns, 1 4.5 art ob, 1 5.5 art ob, 1 vet comp to back 1 reg comp, a few sharpshooters to nail tank commanders, and half a dozen or so minefields and barbwire to block the route of infantry advance.

If you get enough to wipe out the armour, you often don't have enough to stop the infantry.

With oblique fire I find I can sometimes nail 3 or 4 tanks with one gun (some guns get knocked out without hitting anything). I try and set up kill zones with my 'bishops' on either flank, zeroed in on a common spot, so when the tanks turn to fire on one set, the other set nails them in the side.

I'm placing my guns now in trees behind trees/houses to block enemy fire from the front. Seems to help the gun last a little longer but enemy artillery prevents any placing of two guns together; the computer is pretty good at using art to knock out gun positions.

It's a great scene of carnage and a real Alamo last stand kinda thing.

Even with the best of luck tho, I cannot knock out the whole armour attack. But it's great fun tho! Whole fields of smoking, burning tank hulks. Nothing like at guns vs tanks!

I just hope that CM 2 will add the extra option of going up against AT defenses.

As it stands now, you have to select the german forces yourself if you want to try an armour attack vs. anti-tank defenses.

infantry vs. tanks --- i just haven't seen infantry as being the bane of tanks in CM at all. It's the other way around from my point of view.

the 2000 point fights get pretty hefty on my processor so I stick mostly to 1500. I think the brits are better than the american anti tank defenses, too. the 17 pndr is bloody awesome.

thnx for the replies!

kunstler

[Michael Dorosh]

Stop playing Quick Battles. They are the problem, not the game engine (though Lewis makes a good point about spotting and MG effectiveness). Since the game is realistic, it stands to reason that a 3 to 1 odds attack is going to prevail.

What is the problem?

What would it say about CM if you could repel 3 to 1 odds attacks easily on gentle terrain?

Of course, if properly handled, a fall-back defense should be able to do it - you may want to examine your tactics rather than just the hardware you are using. Defenders don't have to just sit in place; in fact, some situations require that they be quite mobile indeed.

[ 06-24-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[kunstler]

Problem? What problem?

My observation about quick battle multiplayer always having the defender lose was about regular force ratios; while I do think the attacker has an edge in the quick battles, I also see it as a need to develop better ability on defense, hence the upped ratio to +200 to provide an even greater challenge and work on defense layouts.

I agree with you that in multiplayer, there is an imbalance, but see no reason to stop playing them. At some point I've got to win on the defense. I've just got to get better at it.

I am not criticizing the CM engine for not letting me win in 3 to 1 odds battles. I find them fun challenges. I am simply saying I am not up to the task, and I'm curious to know if the tactical aces here are up to the task, as many criticize the ai and it's ability.

As far as depth in the placement of forces, I do what I can with the terrain layout, but don't have much experience with in depth defenses (other than guns in back, troops further forward). In fairly open terrain or low hills it's beyond my ability to move troops around without getting shot to pieces by the overwhelming number of enemy forces in the +200 battles. Even in regular quick battles I find disengagement often difficult to achieve.

Don't get me wrong; I love the last stand scenario (Half the Myth game battles are this type of confrontation). That's why I'm having fun playing them.

kunstler

[kunstler]

If you can repel an ai +200 attack I tip my hat to you and I'll gladly adopt any tactical methods you use. I'm putting it forward as a tactical challenge, NOT a test of the games balance.

The only 'problem' i see is that there is no anti tank option for force selection. Perhaps there are good historical reasons for it being excluded, I don't know, so I'm suggesting that it be included as an option.

kunstler

[ 06-24-2001: Message edited by: kunstler ]

[OGSF]

I just completed a 30 turn 2000pt infantry defence against Germans at 200%. The defender (US) gained a "Total Victory", score 82 to 14. However, my six 76mm AT guns were next to useless, knocking out just 2 German vehicles, and only one of those a tank before they themselves were knocked out. Their shells just bounce off the German armour. I had four infantry platoons, one of them veteran. I left them in their positions and let the AI manage their target selection.

The game winner was two 105mm VT arty spotters and ten TRPs along the most likely approaches. The AI hordes came up along two lines of advance and I followed them in with VT shells.

At the end there were still 613 Germans who were "OK", after 986 casualties, but the majority of them were panicked, tired or weary. My 107 remaining troops, depleted by artillery strikes, were holding and may well have turned the Germans back. However, there were at least three tanks, a Tiger, PkwIV and a Jagdpanther which were roaming my lines unchallenged by any AT assets. Some of my troops had gammon bombs which were all I had left in AT stuff.

Not much point letting the computer pick my forces, without the VT and TRPs' I think it would have been a different story.

OGSF

[kunstler]

wow, OGSF.

I know the ai uses the river of tree route and bunches up infantry, and I try and use art to nail the hordes, but still lose.

I find my infantry get pounded to pieces by the enemies massed armour.

Ok, so for the vets here I guess this ain't much of a challenge, gamey or not. No wonder I lose in the multiplayer games.

kunstler

[catnip]

I just won a close tactical allied victory(Infantry only) vs the AI(Axis armor) with the +300 bonus. The settings were pretty much default except for the map settings on small.

Here is what I bought on 1500pts:

2x British rifle

2x 140mm VT artillery

5x TRPs

4x anti tank mines(shoulf have bought more)

Lots of AP mines (bought too many)

3x 6pdr AT guns.

Some piats

I placed the AT mines on the roads leading into the village and the AP mines in a wide row in front. I placed the TRPs about 100m in front of the AP mine belt. Two of the three 6pdrs were near the side of the map and one was in the middle of the village at the road intersection.

I waited until the enemy tanks came single file down the main road before opening fire with VT. To my surprise the first panther hit the mine and exploded causeing a huge traffic jam. When the VT artillery hit, all the light armored vehicles died too. I was even lucky enough to kill 2 hetzer and immobilize a few other tanks. Next I used the 6pdrs to open fire and finish off the rest of the tanks stuck in the jam.

The AI next tried to flank me on both sides and after losing a few tanks, made it all the way to the outskirts of town. About this time I was keeping the axis infantry at bay with VT barrages along the mine belt.

At this point I didn't have a way to stop the hoardes of infantry coming around the flanks. I decided to pull everbody back to the flag areas and leave the piats in town to slow down the armor. The piats killed a bunch of tanks at point blank range and the traffic jam they caused allowed my remaining men to escape and make it to the flag areas by turn 20.

In the end most of my troops were badly weakend and most were pinned or broken, but enough have made it to the flags to give me a 59% score. The key to killing the infantry and light armor is the 140mm VT.

I plan to try it again with more AT mines and a few more piat teams.

[Jarmo]

I've won against a 300% assault, but I haven't been able to stop one.

I used a team of tank destroyers to whack most of the enemy

armour. Several heavy arty spotters to cause huge casualties

to advancing infantry. My infantry basically withdrawed from

ambush to another and finally off map.

End result, attacker had about 50% casualties and all the flags.

I had light casualties and a tactical victory...

(you'll never find out why I edited this! Buahahaa!)

[ 06-26-2001: Message edited by: Jarmo ]

[catnip]

Well, I tried it again this time with only mines, piats, TRPs, 2x 140mm VT, and 5x 6pdr guns. I was able to stop all of the armor with AT mines and piats. I almost stopped all of the infantry at the minefield, but ran out of arty and they eventually went around and flanked me. Still, I managed a draw this time.

The next time I try it I won't buy any AT guns at all since they seem to only get 1 to 2 kills before they are supressed and killed.

I think I'll just buy all AP mines except 3 to 4 AT mines then piats and the 2 140mm VT.

[CombinedArms]

It sounds like the key is VT artillery, and Piats, maybe some infantry, maybe some mines-- and minimize the AT guns. TDs can be useful. Inflict maximum casualties and don't worry too much about VLs?

[MrSpkr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by catnip:

The next time I try it I won't buy any AT guns at all since they seem to only get 1 to 2 kills before they are supressed and killed.

I think I'll just buy all AP mines except 3 to 4 AT mines then piats and the 2 140mm VT.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bad idea. If you have a 60-90 pt AT asset that destroys a 150-200 pt enemy tank, you are up 60-140 pts right there even if the AT gun is lost immediately after it makes its kill.

I do like the idea of bleeding the enemy, then withdrawing from the map. If you cause enough enemy casualties to offset the loss of (on average) 500pts in flags, you have just pulled out a tactical or better victory.

[ParaBellum]

I just played a 1500 pts defensive battle against an allied attack with +200 bonus.

I achieved a major victory and caused something like 750 casualties while losing 104 men.

I used a Panzergrenadier Co, 2x75mm Pak, 1x50mm Pak, 2x20mm Flak, 2x120mm FOs, 2x75mm FOs, 2 Panzerschreck teams and lots of barbe wire, mines and some TRPs.

I got a real nasty surprise when I found out that the AI had picked 5 Churchill VII, lots of other armour and, of course, A LOT of infantry. ALL Veterans!

I killed about 14 vehicles loosing all my guns but only one Churchill survived, immobilized in a minefield.

A knight's cross went to the gunner of a 50mm Pak, who destroyed 2 Churchill VII (!) with flank shots using tungsten.

I stopped his infantry attack at a large barbe wire/minefiled. The AI bunched at least 3 companies of british infantry together while my infantry opened fire from about 100-150m. The AI lost AT LEAST 2 full companies within 3 minutes. Flanking MG fire, the tremendous firepower of the Panzergrenadiere and all of my offboard arty reduced his frontal assault to a mass of dead or panicked squads.

I tried to withdraw my troops to a second line of resistance when heavy arty hit them. Most casualties occured during this phase.

At the end I was still controlling 3 of the 5 VLs, but my Panzergrenadier company only counted 32 men...

The AIs last charge at turn 30 consisted mostly of PIAT teams, FOs and company HQs...

[catnip]

Ok, this time I stopped the Axis attacker (+300) cold. I would have had all the flags, but the AI flag rushed me on the last turns and turned half of them into question marks.

Here is what I bought on 1500pts:

5x AT mines

7x TRPs

The rest of the fortification allotment spent on AP mines.

2x 140mm VT

20x Vet Piat(will buy more next time!)

Rest spent on Vickers MMGs

As usual I placed an AP minefield that spanned 80% of the front line leaving the edges open. I placed AT mines where I wanted traffic jams to build up. Behind the minefield and in the village I put piats and vickers. Trps were in front of the mine belt.

What happens is the infantry gets cut down at the mine belt, but the tanks continue past it allowing my piats up front to get side and rear shots. This worked so well that in the end I totaled 21 AVFs killed!!!

Of course some were probably killed from VT artillery, but this is much better mileage than AT guns and I was able to widthdraw a few piats to new firing positions.

For my next game I plan to buy more piats and with sharpshooters and maybe some infantry to help clean up the enemy crews.

Overall it was very fun and I ended up with an allied total victory.

[ 06-26-2001: Message edited by: catnip ]

[catnip]

MrSpkr, Thats true that AT guns easily pay for themselves, but 8x 6pdrs cost me over 400pts and were getting about 12 kills on average even after I set them up with only limited LOS. With the AI on armor assault and +200 bonus, they have way too many tanks.

Parabellum, Try it as Axis assault at +200 handicap(+300 force increase). I feel it is much harder, especially with the heavier axis tanks.

[MrSpkr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by catnip:

MrSpkr, Thats true that AT guns easily pay for themselves, but 8x 6pdrs cost me over 400pts and were getting about 12 kills on average even after I set them up with only limited LOS. With the AI on armor assault and +200 bonus, they have way too many tanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But that is exactly why they are good.

Look at it this way. You spent 400 pts. They destroyed between 1200-2400 pts of armor.

If you had no other losses and withdrew everything from teh map at that poitn (leaving 800pts in flags and your 400 pts in AT guns), you would still pull out AT LEAST a draw and more likely a minor victory.

Nobody ever said you had to stay on the map and keep fighting. Cause a bunch of casualties and leave.

[catnip]

I understand, but my ultimate goal is to find a defense that stops the AI cold without losing many flags. The real fun is trying to figure it out.

[StellarRat]

I've won playing the Germans on defense where the Allies had a 300% advantage, but only when I got to pick my own forces. I think it was a 600 pt battle, medium map with a small village in the middle. I took a 120mm mortar, a couple platoons of veteran infantry and some other stuff (I can't remember what it was probably 50 mm AT guns and panzershrecks.) I believe I also got at least 3 veteran HMGs and some mine fields. I put my FO's as far forward as possible with good LOS and heavy cover. The rest of them forces are defending the village and one objective point. It is worthwhile noting that I only try to defend one objective. The computer will attempt to capture them all so you have to be patient and let it come to you.

Anyway, generally what happens is the computer moves out, I nail his infantry at long range with the 120mm mortar. This disrupts the infantry and usually immobilizes an AFV or two. Another note here: Usually the computer has so many forces in play that the 120mm can hardly fail to damage multiple targets. There is such a thing as too high a concentration of forces! So, the computer takes very heavy casualities in the infantry. Sometimes 50+ men are killed by the 120 alone. Then when the infantry gets closer (now totally disorganized) I nail them with the HMGs. Eventually the tanks make it to objective area the after losing a couple to minefields and I nail them with ATs from the flanks (cross fire) and panzershreck ambushes. Usually at this point my infantry positions are in danger of being overrun. Sometimes the Allies capture the objectives, but lose anyway because of casualites.

I can usually tell early on if the battle is going to be winnable. You do need some luck and good terrain advantage to win when you're outnumbered by this much.

[Jarmo]

Well I tried it.

Axis Armored +200 vs french infantry

I must say it was one of the best experiences for a while.

I picked 2x57mm AT guns, half a dozen AT minefields and 4 AP minefields.

155mm and 81mm spotters.

A company of regular and 1 platoon of veteran infantry.

AI shopped in her usual manner. Like a goddamn gamey bastard. A battallion of rifle infantry. A panzergrenadier company and a volksgrenadier company. But it was her armored forces that were truly impressive. Tigers, Panthers, PanzerIVH's, PzIVJ's, StugIII's, StugIV's, Wespes, Hummels, all kinds of halftracks and even a heavy AC.

32 vehicles in all.

From the start it was clear my two AT guns would be mighty hard pressed to kill them all.

Especially since the french don't seem to think much about tungsten. Had none.

There was a village and an area of tall pines south of it. I blocked the ways to the village with AT mines as well as I could. Worked very well, 5 tanks dead and 3 immobilized.

I had two platoons of infantry further back in the village. They lasted a good while before being ran over.

Into the woods I placed the veteran platoon, with the AP minefield before them, they had no LOS away from the woods, so they could hang in there without fear of direct fire (or so I thought). They lasted very well. But after the village was run over and a Hummel circled behind them (getting a nice LOS), things started going downhill very rapidly. Still, there were 16 dead-german markers around them, so I'm happy with the results there.

My AT gun shooters were obviously the worst shots in the french army. Firing from 450 meters the first gun scored 7 hits with 24 shots. Killing 2 stugs and 4 halftracks. The second one fired two misses at the side of a Panther before getting blown up.

My arty was devastating, as should be expected when AI tends to cram 100 men into a small patch of woods. in addition to couple of hundred infantry casualties, a couple of AFV's were knocked out.

Then I still had 1 platoon waiting in ambush behind the village, near the flags. The ambush worked fine, the first dozen attackers fell before they knew what's happening.

But that only goes so far when there are 200 attackers in the first wave. And the attackers are backed up by 2 Tigers, 2 Panthers, 3 PzIV's, a Stug and a Hummel. All within 150 meters from my men.

I decided to pull out everything I could. Turned out to be quite a lot. Only 1 guy (from the last platoon) didn't make it. And the Company HQ (thass me!) made it too.

End result: Minor allied victory (61-39)

Allies

158 casualties, 15 captured

3 mortars and 2 guns KO

48 men OK.

Axis

481 casualties, 2 captured

18 vehicles KO

379 men OK.

--

forgot to mention it was a 1250 point game, giving AI cool 7500 points.

[ 06-26-2001: Message edited by: Jarmo ]

[catnip]

I really wish I could buy more artillery with a 1500pt infantry defense. As it stands, the best artillery I can purchase is 2x 140mm VT british(march 1945). I might try the defense in "unrestricted" mode and buy Mines, TRPs, Piats, and 4x 140mm VT. Right now my 2x VT artillery helps me get 350-450 infantry kills per game with the total axis attacker having about 1000+ infantry.

[kunstler]

Stopping german panzer attacks (with tigers, kings, panthers, etc) at +200 (300 per cent) --- wow.

Man, you guys are devious, nefarious, and crafty. I'm gonna try some of your methods!

anyone tried American Airborne vs 300? 57mm at guns max. Didn't think it could be done but if you rely on the minefields and zooks . . . hmm. I'll have to give that a whirl too.

kunstler

[catnip]

Well, I did it again and this time I got a slightly higher score. My victory was over 75% at the end. This time I bought 6 vet sharpshooters to go along with the 25 piats.

With only 2 AT mines and the rest AP, I was able to stop about 90% of the enemy infantry at the minefield. Still, some of them went along the edge of the map and got through, but my vickers held them at bay pretty long.

For this game I placed 20 of the piats very close to the front lines inside buildings or in trees. The problem with that was the AI used artillery to blast the front line and in doing so killed a lot of piats and this reflected at the end of the game(only 14 tanks killed). The highlight was one piat team with 4 tank kills and the 485 axis infantry casualties.