Immobile Victory Flags are not historical

[WendellM]

OMG, this is all too funny . I've been away from CM for a while, but all these great references ("Fahnenwerfer," "Unlike MG's, one or two men should be able to transport a VF rapidly, and even run with the VF," "How many times must BTS explain that while MVF (Mobile Victory Flags) WERE used, their use was strictly limited to a STRATEGIC role and simply don't fit within the scale and scope of CMBO. Despite the SPECULATION of others on this thread ('Oh it shouldn't be too hard' ... 'Why I bet one man could carry a couple' ... 'I once carried a soccer corner flag for two blocks')," "the dreaded Legion Ex Machina, who always master the battlefield at the start of every battle when one sees that machine grey fearsome '?' flag [...] only to be heard occasionally as their grey and with red '?' vehicles drive back and forth...") had me howling and remembering the good ol' days. I've gotta start playing it again! And I'm now waiting for CM2 as impatiently as all of you. Thanks, guys!

[Mace]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Beman:

Nabelfloobleflagenwurfengewehr!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gesundheit!!!

[SenorBeef]

You guys forgot about the quantom flag teleporter. CM realistically models this - in game, you can press shift-f, and your flags are magically teleported into subspace until you call them back.

[PiggDogg]

Gee, "Beam me up, Snotty" (Oops, I mean "Scotty"). In my next Cmbo game, I will definitely use the quantum victory flag teleporter so that I can send them to support Captain Jerk (Oops again, I mean Captain Kirk) when he stun guns and wipes away the Cling-ons (I mean Klingons).

Cheers, Richard

[New Age Santa]

I thought the victory flags were to represent important tactical positions. Small flags being smaller points to take and not as important and the large flags for the areas that are of the utmost importance....

[-E]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by New Age Santa:

I thought the victory flags were to represent important tactical positions. Small flags being smaller points to take and not as important and the large flags for the areas that are of the utmost importance....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Survey says..... bzzzzt. Smaller flags are lighter than larger flags, and thus more prone to become mobile.

[Guest Babra]

Smoke drifts over a field torn by shot and shell. Through the haze, the dim, barely visible figures of Lawyer's infantry can be heard jabbering away in legalese. Babs grunts and strains, pulling at the well-anchored VL. "C'mon, c'mon, c'mon...." It won't budge. From a few meters away a burst of badly pronounced latin is heard. "Bugger," says our hero, giving the uncooperative VL a kick as he fades into the mist...

[Mace]

Actual evidence of a VF being moved:

BTS, please fix or do sumfink!!!

*edited for the Hallibut*

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Mace ]

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mace:

[QB][/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you got data on unlimber time for

those things? It looks like the guys

in your picture are on a rubble tile,

where it might be easier to get the

flag up quickly, though crooked perhaps.

ANYONE?????? BTS???????????

--Rett

[Stixx]

Well I'm not sure on exact unlimber times but these 2 guys had the flag up after only 8 minutes of landing on the beach.

[Enoch]

No one has discussed the obvious flaw in CM: In meeting engagements, since neither side occupied the field of battle they could not place victory flags. That is unless the victory flags were placed by uninterested third parties before a battle took place.

But then this raises the question of whether if a person places a victory flag and no one is there to see it, does anyone care?

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Enoch ]

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stixx:

Well I'm not sure on exact unlimber times but these 2 guys had the flag up after only 8 minutes of landing on the beach.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But that is a light flag! I was asking for

the large victory flag unlimbering stats.

Sheeesh! You guys are hopeless! :mad:

--Rett

[Guest Babra]

Set-Up time for this VL was just shy of four years...

[CMplayer]

There's one thing I still don't understand.

Okay, each side puts up their own victory

flags, as we have seen in the pictures.

But WHO PUTS UP THE '?' FLAGS? Civilians?

Neutral observers? What gives? And by

the way I HAVE looked in the MANUAL and

DONE A SEARCH.

--Rett

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: ]

[MrSpkr]

I smell a grog conspiracy here:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Pigg-Dogg said:

The victory flags (VF) are not 'real' flags here. The are (strategic, operational, tactical, random, etc., who knows) victory locations (VL) to be controlled by either, both, or neither player. They are game devices to cause players to engage each other in some sort of realistic fashion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Joe Shaw burbled:

Lawyer You Idiot, trust you to bring up THAT old chestnut again. How many times must BTS explain that while MVF (Mobile Victory Flags) WERE used, their use was strictly limited to a STRATEGIC role and simply don't fit within the scale and scope of CMBO. Despite the SPECULATION of others on this thread ("Oh it shouldn't be too hard" ... "Why I bet one man could carry a couple" ... "I once carried a soccer corner flag for two blocks") BTS has, as usual, done it's homework and prohibited, rightly, the movement of MVF during the course of the game. ANYONE with half a brain (I realize this excludes YOU) only has to look at any map in CMBO and it will become immediately obvious that the MVF were DAMN BIG and HEAVY! All of this nonsense about moving the flags obscures the REAL issue ... why don't they block LOS? Trees do it, bridges do it, even educated bees ... no wait that's something else. Something that large would surely cause a major problem for the LOS and, AND if the wind is heavy how come you don't hear the flapping, huh, HUH?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>New Age Santa gasped:

I thought the victory flags were to represent important tactical positions. Small flags being smaller points to take and not as important and the large flags for the areas that are of the utmost importance....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Obviously what is going on is a Great Conspiracy amongst public grogs (like Pigg-Dogg) and some here-to-fore UNKNOWN grogs such as Joe Shaw (?!?!?) to cover the obvious inability of BTS to implement something as simple as flag mobility. This is nothing more than another attempt by BTS to kowtow to the grogs at the expense of everyone else.

Next, I suppose we will hear some lame excuse explaining that flag mobility cannot be implemented at this time due to game engine limitations, but that BTS is considering it for CM 54.5.

Hrmmmphh.

MrSpkr

P.S. By the way, Joe, we have ALL seen your true, groggy colors now and won't soon forget it. 'Protector of the Pool' indeed!

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: MrSpkr ]

[Silvio Manuel]

Originally posted by Richard Cuccia, the PiggDogg:

[QB]What herb is being smoked here ????

Only the good stuff.

...What was that sound?

...Where the heck did I leave my Doritos?!

[Joe Shaw]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Obviously what is going on is a Great Conspiracy amongst public grogs (like Pigg-Dogg) and some here-to-fore UNKNOWN grogs such as Joe Shaw (?!?!?) to cover the obvious inability of BTS to implement

something as simple as flag mobility.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The only thing SIMPLE around here is YOU pal. The FACTS are obvious, MVFs were "mobile" in the same sense that a Mobile Army Surgical Hospital (MASH) was "mobile". Sure it could be done, and in fact the movement of a MVF was often done with a MASH unit in support (hernias, smashed fingers, sprains and strains being all too common in the effort), but it was far from SIMPLE and ... wait for it now ... WAS NOT WITHIN THE SCOPE AND SCALE OF CMBO.

Now SOME might suggest that with the unit scale could be bumped to +4, thus allowing the larger figures to more easily manuver the cumbersome flag, but this ignores common practice in the era when ALL armies prohibited units from shifting to +4 scale IN A COMBAT AREA. The ONLY time that units could engage +4 scale was when visiting certain establishments of entertainment. It has even been suggested that the +4 scale was more often CLAIMED than PROVED, and that it didn't equally affect all troop properties.

The specious argument also overlooks several important factors accurately modelled by BTS.

1. Shift B - Unit Bases could severly impact a unit's ability to move the MVFs in that the size of the base made it virtually impossible to get anywhere NEAR the MVF.

2. Shift M - Show 3 men per squad would effectively eleminate one or two men, thus reducing the manpower available for the job.

3. Shift F - Objective Flags could render the whole exercise pointless IF THE DAMN FLAGS WERE INVISIBLE!

Get a clue people, BTS KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

Joe

[Wilhammer]

Iskander was real upset when I ignited a VP building. So he told me about this thread.

How come we can't target VPFs? Why were no tanks made of this stuff? I have seen buildings burst into flames, only to explode in glorious balls of expanding force and flame, only to see the VPF land squarely back on its point, so proudly waving, so unburnt, so still THERE.

1. The shaft of the VPF always points down, and never waivers from plum. Talk about your "erect" staff.

2. The Flag never burns, thus avoiding any and all constitutional issues.

3. The flags have INTELLIGENCE. They are perfectly capable of detecting the nationality of the nearest force, or lack thereof, and instantly, in a cameleon like fashion, blend in and get coveted acceptance from that side.

4. The flags have ultimate Stealth, They hide with a shift key combo. This trait is shared with Vehicles too, so it is not unique.

5. The flags possess a large gravitational pull. When visible, if you trace an LOS or targeting line towards them, they tend to grab the visual line and pull them into themselves when the line of sight is too close.

The new Uberweapon!

VPFs = Viagra Penultimate Farce signal devices.

[Guest Babra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wilhammer:

VPFs = Viagra Penultimate Farce signal devices.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really REALLY wondering what you think "penultimate" means

[Wilhammer]

penultimate means "next to last".

This proceeds the ultimate, which is the last. In CM, I reserve that for the uber HTs.

[Iskander]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wilhammer:

Iskander was real upset when I ignited a VP building...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*sigh*

No, I wasn't real upset, nor was I concerned about the building... I was puzzled why you shot smoke around that VF in the woods WAY over on my right (that's your left if you're from Palm Beach County).

Perhaps this is yet another manifestation of the intelligence of these Flags: knowing that a battle will soon rage about them, they seek to hide themselves via smoke! Hell, maybe the big ones can call in airstrikes, too!

Why don't you sit still for a minnit, Wil, and we'll see....

[General Panic]

So the real reason the Allies won the war is that our industrial might produced more VF's than the Axis could capture.

[MrSpkr]

More proof of the Grog Conspiracy and Joe's participation therein:

Exhibit One:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe Shaw:

The FACTS are obvious, MVFs were "mobile" in the same sense that a Mobile Army Surgical Hospital (MASH) was "mobile". Sure it could be done, and in fact the movement of a MVF was often done with a MASH unit in support (hernias, smashed fingers, sprains and strains being all too common in the effort), but it was far from SIMPLE and ... wait for it now ... WAS NOT WITHIN THE SCOPE AND SCALE OF CMBO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only a Grog would be able to identify (or even be willing to claim to know) whether or not this type of activity is within the "scale" of CMBO.

Exhibit Two:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Now SOME might suggest that with the unit scale could be bumped to +4, thus allowing the larger figures to more easily manuver the cumbersome flag, but this ignores common practice in the era when ALL armies prohibited units from shifting to +4 scale IN A COMBAT AREA.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only a Grog would discuss the 'common practices' of a unit during any given era.

Exhibit Three:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The ONLY time that units could engage +4 scale was when visiting certain establishments of entertainment.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only a Grog would attempt to discuss both sexual activities and military units in the same sentence.

Exhibit Four:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It has even been suggested that the +4 scale was more often CLAIMED than PROVED<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only a Grog would attempt to distinguish between the CLAIMS of various military units and REALITY.

Exhibit Five

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>and that it didn't equally affect all troop properties.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only a Grog would attempt to argue that magnification produced some distortions in unit and soldier qualities.

Exhibit Six:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The specious argument also overlooks several important factors accurately modelled by BTS.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only a Grog would display such mindless obeisance to BTS regarding an issue of such importance to the casual gamer.

Exhibit Seven:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1. Shift B - Unit Bases could severly impact a unit's ability to move the MVFs in that the size of the base made it virtually impossible to get anywhere NEAR the MVF.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only a Grog would bother determining the miniscule difference that the size of a unit's base would make in most combat situations.

Exhibit Eight:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2. Shift M - Show 3 men per squad would effectively eleminate one or two men, thus reducing the manpower available for the job.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only a Grog would recognize the impact of the 'Shift M' technique upon raw unit strength.

Exhibit Nine:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>3. Shift F - Objective Flags could render the whole exercise pointless IF THE DAMN FLAGS WERE INVISIBLE!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only a Grog would attempt to argue that the visibility of the flags would pose any impediment to their transportability.

Exhibit Ten:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Get a clue people, BTS KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, only a Grog would display such mindless deference to BTS on an issue they have clearly modeled incorrectly.

Exhibit Eleven:

Joe

The signature of the accused.

Joe (name unbolded for one who MAY in fact be a Grog!) you have much to answer for after this latest slip. Perhaps we should ask, umm, hrmm, . .. ah yes, Seanachai to handle this prosecution?

Of course, jdmorse, Lawyer and myself are available for your defense -- for a slight, no strike that, exorbitant fee . . .

[Wilhammer]

Iskander....

Sorry, I actually deliberately smoked that VPF. As for the building blow, that was another gamer, sorry for the mis-identification.

As for getting you real upset, I do not consider it possible to get a cess pooler real upset. It is comment best taken in jest, for the pooles surely jest.

... not to mention that they must have no feelings as the insiduous barbs attest.

The cessers are the elite volkstrum of CM...

[Iskander]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wilhammer:

Iskander....

It is comment best taken in jest, for the poolers surely jest....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just so you know: I in fact take all such comments with a grain of salt...

... and a slice of lime...

... and tequila.

And don't call me Shirley.