CM: The Nomandy Campaign - Call for Players (disgustingly long)

[Capt. Ayers]

Sounds interesting to me. Count me in. I prefer allies, but I'll take anything that's available.

[Michael Dorosh]

I hope there will be a website to post info on the campaign, as well as AARs, screenshots, and other neat stuff...

[M. Bates]

Sounds like the Germans are in need of players, so sign me up for them, I have no unit preference.

If Germans are filled up I'll take the Brits.

m.batespbem@btinternet.com

[Tiger]

I'm intrested as well and will play Allies or Germans.

jshki@bellsouth.net

[Gregory Deych]

Just to add my e-mail here: gdeych@rambler.ru.

And I'll take Americans, since they seem to be a little underrepresented.

[L4Pilot]

QUESTIONS AND CONCERNS (in no particular order)

From: Culex Pipiens

"I have to say that two times i have begin a campaign with other people and both died early because people says yes at the begin and then melt away so it is important to choose players that relay want to game!!!! "

Agreed for the most part. I was a participant too, in one of the early CM RPG's. My impression is it is not only player commitment but also Referee workload that determines the endurance of the campaign. Referee workload is the thing I thought about the most in preparing to do this, and by using Normandy '44 with its associated mapping, operational A/I and as an overall environment within which the CM battles are conducted, I'm hoping to keep my workload within reasonable limits.

Additionally, by choosing what elements are emphasized and what are de-emphasized, will help keep the workload manageable. The battles will be emphasized, role playing will not. Not to say that role-playing will be eliminated, just not emphasized.

And there is the issue of what to do if players do "melt away." In other campaigns a player missing (temporarily or permanently) can gum up the works until a replacement is found. In this game "command" of the unit will revert back to the AI and the campaign will keep going.

From: The_Capt

"This is a clear chance to practice true Manoeuvre and see if it really works."

Yes, more so than most CM games I've played. Here flanking and envelopment will definitely have combat benefit. If two units are attacking, one from the SE and one from the NW, the scenario I generate will definitely reflect that. There are maneuver benefits with regard to supply and "isolation" that the Normandy '44 game takes into account, as well. And see the "who is in command of the unit" discussion below.

From: Stephen Smith

"I am suspicious, though. I have (and am playing)Normandy '44.

1) My guess is that you are likely to have very few battles. Suppose you have 20 players (10 per side). As you know, there really aren't that many 'assaults'. The odds that 10 companies out of the whole axis or allied army are actually involved in an assault in a given turn are pretty small-are you doing the whole Normandy battle (in which there are probably 1000's of companies per side) or a smaller scenario with a few divisions per side?"

You hit it on the head! That is what I "discovered" too, playing Normandy '44. And this fact (relatively few assaults per turn) is the only thing that made me even BEGIN to consider doing this. And, foolishly, yes I am doing the whole Normandy campaign. I've found it takes about two hours to process a turn and note what happened to several dozen units.

"2) What are the victory conditions for a given battle? Capture a flag? "

Victory conditions: I don't currently anticipate using VP's in the scenarios (that may change) . The whole hex (CM battlefield) will be the "VP" At the end of the scenario, the player will send the last turn to me so I can review the positions and casualties (and morale) on both sides. I'll evaluate that final turn to determine whether the hex was "taken" and edit those results ( and casualties) back into Normandy '44 with the scenario editor.

"Is there anything stopping me as a company commander from either fighting to the death and losing my whole company (when you didn't intend it) or quickly withdrawing to save myself (when you wanted to hold the hex)?"

Nope. Die or run away all you want. Of course since the casualties are put back into Normandy '44 at the end of the battle any losses will be carried forward for that unit into future turns. And any sudden, unordered "repositioning" is likely to earn a "What the hell are you doing?" visit from your superiors.

"3) What about artillery/armor/engineers? When I play Normandy, the engineer bns and sometimes armored bns fight as one- you could have 45 tanks, or 500 engineers, or 40 scout vehicles, in a 1 km battlefield."

You know I haven't found this much, most of the units really are company and half company sized, sometime even platoons for the schweere (spelling?) Panzers, Were you using the "combine units command?" Which doesn't mean I won't use the stacking. We'll have to feel this out as it goes, to keep the force sizes appropriate for the amount of terrain covered.

From:

Perhaps the players should take control of a battalion sized force instead of a company?

From: Napoleon1944

"Where can I get Normandy 44? "

Don't want to do advertising on the BTS BBS for another company but check under HPS in a search engine. Actually the discussion of using the PanzerCampaigns games from HPS as campaigns for CM has been mentioned before on this board.

From: Walter

"One thing I'm a bit confused about. Doesn't it make sense that since the invading armies were 2:2:1 American:British:Canadian, doesn't it make sense to keep the same ratio or at least approximately? Like 5:5:2? Just my thoughts on it."

Don't know if the ratio matters too much. Plenty of units to go around and I'm trying to respond to preferences. And ALL of the units of the original campaign will be represented - but only a couple of dozen will have "Player Commanders."

"OH, and will you plan on including the paratroop drops as well? Might be an added level of complication that you don't need, but something to consider I guess. "

You bet! With all the problems of scattering, orientation after night landing and flooded drop zones!

From: Michael Dorosh0

"I hope there will be a website to post info on the campaign, as well as AARs, screenshots, and other neat stuff..."

Sounds good, and I would love for someone to tackle it. I'm not going to try until I see what kind of workload the refereeing will be. Everyone not volunteering take one step backwards.

From: Paul Crocker

"One idea: Have each player submit a map for the campaign. You could

quickly build a map library, and when it's been decided to do a CM battle,

you can look into your library for a representative map for that

area. With enough variation, you should be able to account for a good

number of the maps you'll need."

Good idea, but I want to tackle the maps to begin with (I may regret this later!). I'm getting 1:24000 French topo maps from Moon at Games of War to help with the maps. A $140 investment between the cost, shipping and wire transfer fee. I'm only going to make maps of the areas where battles occur and based on the discussion above, that might only be one or two maps per turn. So lets see how it goes.

From: Matt Hyra

"One thing you might want to address is: Who are the leaders and how are

move and assault orders generated? Does the Coy commander decide everything

for his unit? Are their leaders or is the computer deciding strategy?"

Each player commander will initially command a company sized unit. We'll see if there's a way to command a larger unit composed of company sized units as the game progresses. I, as referee, will represent the command structure above the company level

. I''ll let the Normandy '44 AI generate a move or assault order (which is does) which will be issued as an order to the player commander, along with current situational info. Unless the player commander says otherwise, that order will be executed in the context of Normady '44. If an assualt is called for, the battle will be generated using the CM scenario generator and the player commander will fight the battle in CM. The results will be edited back into Normady '44 (which tracks each man, vehicle and gun)

So yes the company commander decides for his unit, though repeated disobedince to orders is likely to have the results you might expect.

And yes, in essence, the Normandy '44 AI is deciding strategy.

I very much appreciate the questions: they have helped me clarify my thinking on this project. I hope I addressed them all. I'll continue to need your input and suggestions as we get this going.

We're getting close to the player cutoff at least for the initial phase. I need to spend some time assigning units, based on expressed preferences, which I will do via email.

And we're waiting for the maps. from France.

Stay tuned and keep those shortwave radios tuned into the BBC.

[This message has been edited by L4Pilot (edited 02-03-2001).]

[L4Pilot]

OK, need to call it with regards to participants. As far as I'm concerned, everyone who posted here or emailed me as of the time this message posted is in. And should be able to give everyone thier stated preference with regard to units.

Happy to keep a waiting list for additional players as spaces open, or I determine I can handle the additional load.

Now comes the hard work!

L4Pilot

[Stefan Wennerberg]

Question: I have been experimenting with the QB generator and (at least with the large battles) Command Control seems to be, at best, handled poorly. Units are often leaderless, HQ units are often placed in risky/silly positions.

How would you handle my concern?

Stefan

[Stefan Wennerberg]

Question: I have been experimenting with the QB generator and (at least with the large battles) Command Control seems to be, at best, handled poorly. Units are often leaderless, HQ units are often placed in risky/silly positions.

How would you handle my concern?

Stefan

[Check6]

Interested. I would prefer Americans. checksix224@aol.com

[L4Pilot]

Originally posted by Stefan Wennerberg:

Question: I have been experimenting with the QB generator and (at least with the large battles) Command Control seems to be, at best, handled poorly. Units are often leaderless, HQ units are often placed in risky/silly positions.

How would you handle my concern?

Stefan

Actually won't be using the QB generator.

I will be using the random map generator in the scenatio generator to generate an initial map with the appropriate paramaters (village, rural, flat, gentle slopes as needed) and then tweaking that for specific terrain features I can glean from the maps I have of the area (hills, roads, hedgerows, etc.).

Then I'll construct set up areas for each side based on the actuall tactical situation. If the player units are attacking from the northeast, then their setup area will be in the northeast of the map.

Depending on time available I'll either do a quick and dirty setup for the defenders or let the computer do the setup.

And of course, the players will always get to do their own setup within the confines of their setup area.

So I can't say there will be no problems as you describe, but I think they will be minimal.

Hope that helps.

[patient mode off]

[Seany B]

I'd like to participate, as Germans or British if possible.

[L4Pilot]

A quick update:

Definitely full, so just taking "waiting list" requests.

Been doing unit assignments - getting 2 or 3 a day done. I have to match player preference with what's available, match it with the Normandy '44 OOB, look up and note arrival or release times and prepare a short note to the player regarding the details of the unit, current location etc.

I'll finish those people with unit or national preferences first, see where that puts the player balance and then do the "any unit ok" people accordingly.

I'm finding very close agreement between the stated unit size in Normandy '44 and the corresponding CM organization. But one unit where there is a substantial difference is the SS PzGrenadier (Mot.) company. CM shows 148 men (IIRC) and Normandy '44 shows 197. Anybody know enough about the TOE for this unit to enlighten me on the difference?

And the latest word from Moon at GamesofWar.de with regard to the topo maps is:

the order is in and will be processed express. I have no idea what

that would mean for the French, but I am confident it's going to be this

year

Lastly, a question for the group (or anybody) - what should be the turn length of the CM scenarios I generate, given that a daytime turn in Normandy '44 is 2 hours? My gut feel says about 40 minutes, given the necessity to marshall and approach. Is there any need or rationale for longer or shorter? Thoughts?

[This message has been edited by L4Pilot (edited 02-04-2001).]

[Stefan Wennerberg]

Originally posted by L4Pilot:

Actually won't be using the QB generator.

I will be using the random map generator in the scenatio generator to generate an initial map with the appropriate paramaters (village, rural, flat, gentle slopes as needed) and then tweaking that for specific terrain features I can glean from the maps I have of the area (hills, roads, hedgerows, etc.).

Then I'll construct set up areas for each side based on the actuall tactical situation. If the player units are attacking from the northeast, then their setup area will be in the northeast of the map.

Depending on time available I'll either do a quick and dirty setup for the defenders or let the computer do the setup.

And of course, the players will always get to do their own setup within the confines of their setup area.

So I can't say there will be no problems as you describe, but I think they will be minimal.

Hope that helps.

[patient mode off]

In my experience of using the scenario editor to "let the computer do the setup" results in very poor placement of HQ units by the Computer AI. I suspect that you will soon discover this. Something I'd like to see BTS fix in CM2.

Sounds like a very interesting project. I hope you'll keep us posted on your progress.

Good Luck,

Stefan

[Midnight Warrior]

Sounds neat. Count me in. I prefer playing allied (any nationality). My EMAIL is RLWilsonxx@aol.com.

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In War: Resolution

In Defeat: Defiance

In Victory: Magnaminity

In Peace: Good Will

Winston Curchill

Moral to His History Of WWII

[Wolfpack]

Any chance we could get a list of those who will be participating? I sent in an e-mail...I think I'm in but not sure.

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It is nearly always better to be beaten and learn, rather than to win and take no new knowledge from that victory.

[Boris Balaban]

Originally posted by Wolfpack:

Any chance we could get a list of those who will be participating? I sent in an e-mail...I think I'm in but not sure.

Me too.

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Boris Balaban

WORK bbalaban@rim.net

HOME b.balaban@home.com

[stevetherat]

Just wanted to make sure I was in. I'd like to take the Brits, if any spaces are available. Any unit is good for me.

Cheers, ol' chap

Steve

[This message has been edited by stevetherat (edited 02-05-2001).]

[Wolfpack]

Just a little....bump...to the top

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It is nearly always better to be beaten and learn, rather than to win and take no new knowledge from that victory.

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

Wonderful ! I love CM , HPS'Panzer Campaign AND email multiplayer games !!

Count me in ! I'm French, so if possible I'd love to play FFL French units from 2éme DB, or the French Commandos that assaulted Ouistreham (Caen area) on D Day.

As a anecdote I can tell that it's because of me, after some mail exchange, that John Tiller (designer/programmer for HPS) put the historical French Lorraine Cross as a mark for French units, before that he wanted to put Lily flowers (Franch royalty symbol) !!

Answer to my personal address (in profile).

[Guest hal9000]

Where do I enlist? Point me towards the nearest recruiting office, I want to do my part!

[L4Pilot]

Update re: participation:

Been working slowly but steadily on unit assignments for those who requested a specific unit. Most of those are done.

If you have not requested a specific unit, here's what happens. When a "interesting" battle comes along in the campaign, I'll go to my list and assign the next available person (based on chronological order of original request) to that battle. I'll provide some info on the unit's history from the beginning of the campaign. And after the battle, you'll be able to "follow" that unit through the rest of the campaign.

So if you have posted to this thread or emailed me at either tailwheler@aol.com or NormandyCampaign@aol.com, then you are "on the list." EVERYBODY who has responded so far will get a unit assignment and battle(s)in the order that you responded. I'm hoping that's a "fair" way to do it.

And it's not too late at all for those with no preference to pick a specific unit to follow (and command). So break open those history books.

Comments welcomed.

"L4Pilot"

[This message has been edited by L4Pilot (edited 02-06-2001).]

[Guest Rex_Bellator]

Tally Ho chaps! - A Squadron of the 22nd Dragoons is on the way to Sword beach courtesy of Mr Pilot. Our thoroughly British Shermans will be in Caen in time for tiffing, if not then I'll simply blame the Normandy '44 A.I. (now to be known as Monty by us Brit. commanders).

I can't imagine any detrement to the game if we reveal our units, indeed I'm pleased to see our Canadian friends already represented earlier in the thread, so why not get the banter going and keep the interest up right now.

So we'll warn any poor Fritz in our paths to get ready to be 'knocked for six' - (Providing Monty has the verve, intelligence and aggression to actually order it...on second thoughts...)

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"We're not here to take it - We're here to give it"

General Morshead's response to the popular newspaper headline "Tobruk Can Take It"

[Gen. Sosaboski]

Will play Polish Infantry or American Airborne, as preferences. If those are filled up, give me some sort of commandos.

SFGCAP@Aol.com

[melville]

Originally posted by Gen. Sosaboski:

Will play Polish Infantry or American Airborne, as preferences. If those are filled up, give me some sort of commandos.

SFGCAP@Aol.com

Would like to participate as well. No real preference on units American or german wold be fine. Though if american something from the blue/grey division would be nice. Well, sounds like there is a preference.

Sounds like a wonderful project. Good fortune to you.