I'm having difficulty understanding squad "firing".

[Amidst_Void]

I'm having difficulty understanding what exactly is going on when a squad "fires" at a target. Although I've been playing this game since it's release, I seem to have overlooked some aspects of the game.

As an example, let's assume that a panzer grenadier squad is firing their weapons at a U.S. rifle 44 squad. At this point, the sound which I'm hearing is an MG42 (LMG). Does the sound of the MG42 truly represent the current weapon being fired? To put it differently, is the MG42 sound that I'm hearing when a squad attacks a target a random weapon sound used to indicate that a squad is in "attack mode" rather than that particular weapon actually being fired?

If that is the case, than there's really no way to tell what weapon is really being fired, not that there should be. If the sound that I'm hearing is, in fact, an actual MG42 being fired than it's true to say that there is more than that one weapon being fired, say a few K98's, correct?

Thank you, good day.

[ 10-04-2001: Message edited by: Amidst_Void ]

[Amidst_Void]

Oh, one more thing I forgot, does anyone know how to change the unit bases color? You know, the neon green for the US, grey for the Axis, light blue for the French. I'm really having trouble seeing those bloody Germans and their kitties, maybe there's a mod out there that changes this(?). If there's a way for me to do it myself, that would be better.

Thanks,

AV

[JasonC]

The sound is a random choice from among all weapons actually in the squad. When a squad is firing, all surviving members are firing all of their weapons; the entire firepower of the squad is being applied. I hope that helps.

[Shatter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JasonC:

The sound is a random choice from among all weapons actually in the squad. When a squad is firing, all surviving members are firing all of their weapons; the entire firepower of the squad is being applied. I hope that helps.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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JasonC are you sure about this?

Just from my experience, I was under the impression that the sound of the gun fired was due to the range at which the your target was. For instance if you are firing at a squad at a distance you would hear the LMG42/BAR or rifle sound at close range you would hear SMG's. When I am playing this is how it works for me. Whenever I have assulted a target starting from a distance I always hear the weapons in this order LMG42/BAR or Rifles, as I get closer, but still somewhat of a distance MP44/Rifles/LMG42/BAR finally when within 50 meters or so, I hear SMG's.

Hopefully someone else can clear this up. Just from my time playing CM I just assumed this was how it is.

[ 10-04-2001: Message edited by: Shatter ]

[Amidst_Void]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JasonC:

The sound is a random choice from among all weapons actually in the squad. When a squad is firing, all surviving members are firing all of their weapons; the entire firepower of the squad is being applied. I hope that helps.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All surviving members are NOT firing all of their weapons. From all the squade level talk that I've read in the past, it seems that only 3 or 4 squade members are actually shooting while the rest are taking cover. I'm still a bit confused as to what's going on.

[JasonC]

I don't know what you think is going on, but what is really happening is you are playing a game of CM.

If a squad is not too suppressed and its firing time rolls around, it fires at its designated target. CM adds up the firepower ratings of all weapons in the squad at that range and gets one number. It reduces this number for enemy cover. It makes a random determination of the effect of this fire on the target.

Anything else funky going on in the whole thing is all packed off into that random "roll" for the effect of the fire. There is no tracking of how wet or dry the socks of the assistant gunner's gunnery assistant is at that split second, nor of how many microns above the earth the sergeant's left shoulder is.

Effect of enemy fire reducing your own is all bundled into the suppression state of the squad, which effects whether they keep their heads down or up, which is a binary yes or no at any given point in time. If their heads are up when their firing time rolls around, they fire. If their heads are down, they don't.

[Guest PondScum]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Amidst_Void:

Oh, one more thing I forgot, does anyone know how to change the unit bases color? You know, the neon green for the US, grey for the Axis, light blue for the French.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe these are hard-coded into the game engine, so no mod is possible.

[Arsenal]

I've wondered about this too.

I always thought the sound you hear is an actual representation of what weapon in a squad is actually being fired at the time.

For example a brit airbourne squad has a total firepower rating of 248 at 40m,but it never fires all of that each time they shoot.I was thinking when you hear the stens fire at 40m it means they are only shooting their stens and putting out 156 firepower or if you hear the bren its putting out 42 at 40m,Is this correct?

Also,isn't this why full smg squads are so effective?because they only have one weapon type so when you hear the smgs fire they are putting out their full firepower rating available.

[Slapdragon]

When a squad fires a set of unsupressed individuals fires to the best of their ability. This of course falls as suppression falls. Different weapons do have different sounds, but in the infantry battle it can get all jumbled up, so that MG-42 may not be from the squad you are looking at, but another around the bend.

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Amidst_Void:

All surviving members are NOT firing all of their weapons.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, yes they are. When the squad in CM shoots, everyone in the squad shoots. It's actually not unlike volleys being fired. A suppressed squad will fire less frequently, but every weapon still fires when it does.

Although I haven't tested it, I think Shatter is correct that the sounds are not entirely random. You tend to hear the SMG sound at 50m, but not at 200m. Just keep in mind that all weapons are being fired regardless of which sound is heard.

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

Actually, yes they are. When the squad in CM shoots, everyone in the squad shoots. It's actually not unlike volleys being fired. A suppressed squad will fire less frequently, but every weapon still fires when it does.

Although I haven't tested it, I think Shatter is correct that the sounds are not entirely random. You tend to hear the SMG sound at 50m, but not at 200m. Just keep in mind that all weapons are being fired regardless of which sound is heard.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the fall off in how often they shoot was intended to simulate individuals getting less of a chance to stick their heads up and return fire. Thus higher suppression represents more and more people in the units says, "screw this" and ducking.

Of course it was quite some time ago that I read this.

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

I think the fall off in how often they shoot was intended to simulate individuals getting less of a chance to stick their heads up and return fire. Thus higher suppression represents more and more people in the units says, "screw this" and ducking.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, yeah. It's all part of the abstraction. But in practice it just means they fire volleys less often.

[Silvio Manuel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

Actually, yes they are. When the squad in CM shoots, everyone in the squad shoots. It's actually not unlike volleys being fired. A suppressed squad will fire less frequently, but every weapon still fires when it does.

Although I haven't tested it, I think Shatter is correct that the sounds are not entirely random. You tend to hear the SMG sound at 50m, but not at 200m. Just keep in mind that all weapons are being fired regardless of which sound is heard.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe your right. Every unhurt squad member fires at the same time- your see only 1 ammo pt. expended and this is the whole squad's ammo, not partial due to LMG firing at second 22, Carbine at second 34, etc.

The only real thing is that you won't hear a weapon fire beyond it's true range, a la SMG @ 300m.

I do agree with observation that one tends to hear short-range weapons more often at short range...perhaps an SMG sound only at a 60m distant target, or MP44s at 110m, for example.

[Amidst_Void]

Well, ok, you've all been helpful, I think I've figured it out for the most part. Still though, doesn't it seem a bit kookie that every member of the squad (in an unsurpressed state ect.) fires EVERY weapon at once right at the same time?

And no, not 'BTS fix it or do somefink', I was just really curious.

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Amidst_Void:

Well, ok, you've all been helpful, I think I've figured it out for the most part. Still though, doesn't it seem a bit kookie that every member of the squad (in an unsurpressed state ect.) fires EVERY weapon at once right at the same time?

And no, not 'BTS fix it or do somefink', I was just really curious.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it is just an abstraction to cover a detailed process that would work out the same way anyway.

[Pak40]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Amidst_Void:

doesn't it seem a bit kookie that every member of the squad (in an unsurpressed state ect.) fires EVERY weapon at once right at the same time?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're taking the firing too literally. CM abstracts lots of aspects of combat. When you see a squad fire in CM, the entire squad's firepower is used in the calculation BUT it doesn't mean that EVERY person in the squad is firing at that spit second. It is ABSTRACTED from reality where some guys would be shooting and other guys ducking or reloading.

Abstraction is a big part of Combat Mission so get used to it. Other things that are abstracted(some are obvious):

1) CM shows 3 men per full squad but there are usually between 8-12 men per squad.

2) The 3 man graphical representation of a squad is only represends the central location of the squad. In actuality, the squad is more spread out. I think BTS said the squad are spread out 40m or so.

3) In relation to # 2 and 3, the entire squad is not in one fox hole like it is shown on the map.

there are other abstractions but you get the point.

[Kingfish]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

Actually, yes they are. When the squad in CM shoots, everyone in the squad shoots. It's actually not unlike volleys being fired. A suppressed squad will fire less frequently, but every weapon still fires when it does.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I always understood that at longer ranges the LMG equipped German squads will have a soldier assigned to feed the belt.

[Pak40]

Amendment to my previous post:

When I said "entire squad's firepower" I was assuming that all weapons in the squad are within range of the target. Submachineguns wont fire at the same range that rifles and MG42s would fire.

Also, I think Kingfish is correct. A rifleman assumes the roll of a belt feeder for the MG42, therefore his firepower isn't calculated.

[Silvio Manuel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pak40:

You're taking the firing too literally. CM abstracts lots of aspects of combat. Other things that are abstracted<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the biggest would seem to be the use of Infantry Smoke-Grenades to cover movement...perhaps this is a factor in why Infs are SO effective on the run...i.e. charging an MG42 and taking few casualties. The Smoke-Grenades are apparently abstracted....but I can't remember what the CM manual says about that.

[Ben Galanti]

Well, smoke grenades aren't abstracted, there aren't any. BTS's research showed that infantry smoke grenades weren't really used for cover, but for signaling.

The reason charging MG42's works a bit better then it perhaps ought to is do to other issues (which should be improved on for CM2)

As for the comment of German soldiers feeding the MG42's, the drop in fire power due to that is factored into the MG42's firepower. So, the riflemans fire power is subtracted from the MG42's firepower, but then the rifleman fire's also. So, in the end it is a wash, but the effect is as if someone was helping feed the MG instead of firing.

Ben