Civilians in CMBB?

[[Wiking]]

I was always wondering why there aren't any civilians in CMBO. You know; refugees and the likes. They could just roam around the battlefield, trying to get out of the map. The more escape, IMHO the more points the Allies should get. The less escape, the more points for the Germans. Or something like the Resistance movement in France. You never know where they'll pop up. Maybe destroy a tank or two, then escape. Special bonuses would apply if the Axis player could actually kill them. I dunno.

But maybe it would just make the game look silly.

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SS_Obergruppenführer:

I was always wondering why there aren't any civilians in CMBO. You know; refugees and the likes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can imagine them for yourself. Just

assume there are people hiding in the

cellars of the building when they catch

on fire and stuff. It's not too nice

to think about, really.

I agree that in some very specialized

scenarios, there could be civilians,

but in general I would rather play

an antiseptic, tactical game, and forget

about the kind of stuff you see in

films like Harrison's Flowers.

--Rett

[MikeyD]

I've lobbied for civies in CMBB in the past, myself. Even worked out a way they could be used in the game to count against you point-wise for producing unwanted casualties. But alas, nobody listened. I guess if I want to kick civilian butt I'm just going to have to stick with the old game "POSTAL"

[gunnergoz]

Civilians, especially in the East, were ignored, abused, exploited, neglected, abandoned, terrorized, pillaged, executed, or otherwise treated like an impediment to operations by both sides. Their inclusion in a game would serve no purpose. Personally, I'd rather not trivialize their memories. Our digital soldiers at least can fight for their lives...

[Dittohead]

Don't know about civilians, but I do know that the guys over in the peng thread are lobbying Steve pretty hard to get sheep included. :eek:

[WWB]

In general, civilians in the european and Russian countryside knew what to do when armies got near: bury everything of value and hide out in the woods until they pass.

In general, they would not be too close to the actual shooting per se, except in odd cases.

WWB

[MrSpkr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dittohead:

Don't know about civilians, but I do know that the guys over in the peng thread are lobbying Steve pretty hard to get sheep included. :eek:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And this is how misunderstandings occur.

The denizens of the Muthah Beautiful Thread are not lobbying as a group - that would imply leadership and organization, which we despise. Mace is lobbying for the inclusion.

And no, Mace is not lobbying Steve hard - although he has mentioned something about the sheep and being hard in the lobby or something . . . you'll have to ask him about the particulars.

[gunnergoz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wwb_99:

In general, civilians in the european and Russian countryside knew what to do when armies got near: bury everything of value and hide out in the woods until they pass.

In general, they would not be too close to the actual shooting per se, except in odd cases.

WWB<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You need to expand your reading. Especially in the opening weeks and months of Barbarossa, hundreds of thousands of Russian and Ukrainian peasants were killed in and around their towns and villages. They were systematically divested of their farm animals, homes, property and finally their lives. And there aren't any forests in the steppes of Ukraine to hide in.

Not that the Russians dealt with their peasants with any kindness...the scortched earth that they left behind for the Germans as they pulled back included the homes that peasants would have occupied through the forthcoming and record-cold winter. And if their homes somehow survived the Red Army pullout, then the Germans would occupy the homes and toss the inhabitants out into the snow to freeze to death.

No, it wasn't always as easy as walking away or hiding in the woods...

Our fascination with the military side of this war all too frequently overlooks the fact that it was a total war which was waged on civilians with equal ferocity to the combatants. It was a war that gave everyone an equal opportunity to die, and some got more than their fair share of that deadly opportunity as it was.

I'll get off my soapbox now, but I am a bit touchy about the issue of civilian casualties as there were plenty in that war that included blood relatives and in-laws of mine.

[Pzman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SS_Obergruppenführer:

I was always wondering why there aren't any civilians in CMBO. You know; refugees and the likes. They could just roam around the battlefield, trying to get out of the map. The more escape, IMHO the more points the Allies should get. The less escape, the more points for the Germans. Or something like the Resistance movement in France. You never know where they'll pop up. Maybe destroy a tank or two, then escape. Special bonuses would apply if the Axis player could actually kill them. I dunno.

But maybe it would just make the game look silly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some one asked about this a month ago BTS gave a big fat NO.

[Stacheldraht]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Our fascination with the military side of this war all too frequently overlooks the fact that it was a total war which was waged on civilians with equal ferocity to the combatants. It was a war that gave everyone an equal opportunity to die, and some got more than their fair share of that deadly opportunity as it was.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That raises a side issue that's usually ignored: what are the ethical ramifications of wargames, particularly ones based on real events like WWII? The sanitized, extremely selective version of the war you see in CM and other games might arguably do a disservice to those who suffered or died, either by turning soldiers' experiences into commercial entertainment, neglecting the catastrophic effect of the war on civilians, or indirectly glamorizing what many soldiers found repellent and degrading. And for those who dismiss that line of discussion by saying, "It's just a game," that's precisely my point. If you've read or seen much about the war, particularly from the perspective of individual soldiers and civilians, it's hard not to ask these questions, when the suffering and hardships were so enormous.

[Ales Dvorak]

Zivjo! Kako si?