How an M8 ruined my day

[Henri]

In a TCPIP game, I had turned the tide and was winning after immobilizing the opponent's last Jumbo and probably his last tank besides one or two Priests and a couple of M8 armored cars.Behind my lines protecting the victory flag were 2 Wespemobile artillery units, a Hummel mobile artillery, a STUGIII and a PzIV. On the other flank, I had a PzIV anbd a STUGIII backing up the infantry. So I breathed a sigh of relief confident that I could hold off his final assault on the flag and perhaps even kick his ass all the way up the map.

But suddenly, out of the blue, an M8 shot down the road on my left, roared through my infantry who watched it pass with gaping mouths, rounded the bend in the road, and appeared behind my massed mobile artillery, which turned to face the intruder, who immediately dispatched the STGIII before it could react. It then proceeded to kill all three mobile artillery units who never got off a shot.

In the meantime, I was bringing my PzIV, which was a bit ahead between the infantry and the artillery, to hit the intruder from behind. The M8 helped him by backing up right into his line of sight as he approached. Just as the Pz was about to fire, a Priest appeared behind him in his line of sight, and he began to waver, moving his cannon back and forth, and finally decided that the M8 was the most dangerous foe.

But it was too late, and the M8 killed the Pz with a side shot, then proceeded to move forward to kill the Hummel.

My mighty potent unyielding impregnable unconquerable invincible indomitable over-powering artillery backfield was reduced to tatters in two minutes by a sonovabitch of an M8 armored car!

Some might consider my opponent's move as gamey (racing an armored car down the map edge then racing behind my lines through infantry), but I found it nothing short of brilliant (not to mention other less mentionable adjectives...).

I'll tell ya this: I learned a good lesson, and next time I play the Allies, you can bet yer sweet patootie that I'll have an M8 nearby in the end game...

Henri

[Fernando]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henri:

In a TCPIP game, I had turned the tide and was winning after immobilizing the opponent's last Jumbo and probably his last tank besides one or two Priests and a couple of M8 armored cars.Behind my lines protecting the victory flag were 2 Wespemobile artillery units, a Hummel mobile artillery, a STUGIII and a PzIV. On the other flank, I had a PzIV anbd a STUGIII backing up the infantry. So I breathed a sigh of relief confident that I could hold off his final assault on the flag and perhaps even kick his ass all the way up the map.

But suddenly, out of the blue, an M8 shot down the road on my left, roared through my infantry who watched it pass with gaping mouths, rounded the bend in the road, and appeared behind my massed mobile artillery, which turned to face the intruder, who immediately dispatched the STGIII before it could react. It then proceeded to kill all three mobile artillery units who never got off a shot.

In the meantime, I was bringing my PzIV, which was a bit ahead between the infantry and the artillery, to hit the intruder from behind. The M8 helped him by backing up right into his line of sight as he approached. Just as the Pz was about to fire, a Priest appeared behind him in his line of sight, and he began to waver, moving his cannon back and forth, and finally decided that the M8 was the most dangerous foe.

But it was too late, and the M8 killed the Pz with a side shot, then proceeded to move forward to kill the Hummel.

My mighty potent unyielding impregnable unconquerable invincible indomitable over-powering artillery backfield was reduced to tatters in two minutes by a sonovabitch of an M8 armored car!

Some might consider my opponent's move as gamey (racing an armored car down the map edge then racing behind my lines through infantry), but I found it nothing short of brilliant (not to mention other less mentionable adjectives...).

I'll tell ya this: I learned a good lesson, and next time I play the Allies, you can bet yer sweet patootie that I'll have an M8 nearby in the end game...

Henri<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think there is something wrong about the M8. I always play the German side and I’m now more afraid of M8s than Fireflies or 76mm armed Shermans. It’s fast, small and deadly accurate. Maybe it’s too cheap and too much accurate. I’ve seen two fast moving M8s hitting a Panther 700 m away with its gun (they had to rotate the turret to have the Panther on the gun sight) while the unbuttoned TCs were firing a machine gun to a MG team 600 m away killing four men. The crews weren’t crack or veteran. Just humble regulars.

Too many Allied players use it as a sort of effective, cheap panzer hunters. They launch them in droves to the rear of the German lines hoping to knock out some slow turreted German panzers with a side or rear shot. Do you think real M8s were used in the agresive manner as most M8s are used on CM? I don’t. If players do it and it works then IMHO perhaps something is wrong. Maybe they are too cheap or its gun is too accurate.

[Marlow]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fernando:

Too many Allied players use it as a sort of effective, cheap panzer hunters. They launch them in droves to the rear of the German lines hoping to knock out some slow turreted German panzers with a side or rear shot. Do you think real M8s were used in the agresive manner as most M8s are used on CM? I don’t. If players do it and it works then IMHO perhaps something is wrong. Maybe they are too cheap or its gun is too accurate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not that I necessarily disagree that U.S. players tend to use them too aggressively (after all, their recon/screen role is not well modeled in the game); however, they were originally designed as tank destroyers, and only resigned to the recon role when it became clear that the 37mm was not up to the task.

[Nitsud42]

M8's can ruin your day, or... You can toast them with a few well placed panzerschrecks!

CM is like any other battlefield and you most protect your flanks at all times!

Two of my opponents have recently tried end runs with their greyhounds/pumas, one game I got two greyhounds while losing 1 Marder, the other I bagged a Puma with no loss.

Best defense, be prepared for anything!

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Are you gonna pull them pistols? Or whistle Dixie? --- Josey Wales

[Pvt.Tom]

Great story Henri, made my lunch break. Now if I only had at work to talk CM with.

Thanks

Pvt.Tom

[Guest Napoleon1944]

I have had similar experiences and I question the gun modeling of the M8. It seems a bit too powerful.

[Marlow]

In another thread, rexford proposed that the 37mm was not powerful enough based on existing balistics data:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/014560.html

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Napoleon1944:

I have had similar experiences and I question the gun modeling of the M8. It seems a bit too powerful.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? Because it can shoot through the back armor of self propelled guns, the side armor of a Pz IV, and a Hummel?

Sorry, you're going to have to do better if you want to convince me that the gun is over powered, esp since BTS has gone to great lenghts to make the penetration values accurate.

[Francesco]

I think that this tactic is what we call "barbinismo", a small not good trick, I think that there had been very few occasions of M8 killing HT and other heavy vehicles!!

Also remember that you should have a GREAT HEART and BRAVTY to do it in on of those small cars during a battle facing a KT!!!!!

[Dittohead]

The problem with the M-8 is I think they are too impervious to small arms and MG fire. It should be alot easier to shoot the rubber off the tires or get a weak pt penetration.

I've done tests with concetrated MG-42 fire against them with nary a scratch on the M-8. You would think after several 100 rds from an 3-4 MG-42's you might be able to immobilize the damn thing. Plus the MG-42 wont fire against the M-8 for very long unless they are above it. Since the MG-42 technically does not have a chance to penetrate it.

[Francesco]

Why not give it a pounch with a AT rifle (panzerbuchse) or some GOOD shots from a sharpshooter?

[Slapdragon]

The M8 is not a super tank, your flanks were just exposed, and it could have been an M18, an M5, or any other small fast flanker. The Panzercheck or a reserve with more mobility was what was needed, since infantry wont always engage enemy armor with their organic weapons. Also the allies played correctly in the game by always keeping a mobile reserve for exploiting mistakes. The tactic also was not gamey, since M18s racked up a 10 to 1 kill ratio of tanks killed to lost Hellcats doing exactly what you described, and the M8 was designed for exactly the same mission (although more normally used to screen against recon and flanking forces).

Something else German Players need to recognize is that their forces are not invulnerable, and it is possible to win playing the US. There is something like 40 threads that want the 37mm armed US tanks slowed down, their guns hobbled, and their armor decreased, along with another 40 which want invulnerable German tanks. Henri's situation shows how many of the seemingly powerful and very cheap German units can get into trouble by the smaller, faster allied units getting into the hen house.

BTW -- great story!

[Guest wwb_99]

I think the 37mm is modeled well. One must remeber that while a 37mm shell did not have as much mass as its heavier brethren, it did have very high velocity. And, if one remembers physics 101:

Force(Armor pierciing potential) = Mass (Weight of shell) * Acceleration (Muzzle velocity)

Now, I don't have the numbers handy, but I would bet that a 37mm shell has about as much, if not more, force as a short 75.

When one adds in high ROF, high ammo load, and the nearly flat trajectory (at least at effective ranges), it becomes a very effective tank killer.

Note that the best M8 killers avaliable are the 20mm armed German ACs and HTs. They can easily penetrate the M8, and have a higher ROF and flatter trajectory.

WWB

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Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus.

[Dittohead]

I doubt very seriously you could find any examples of M-8's tearing around taking on tanks and what not. Most M-8 cmdrs would not risk their vehicle or men on suicide type missions.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>and the M8 was designed for exactly the same mission(although more normally used to screen against recon and flanking forces).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What? Designed for the same mission as the M18

The only problem I see is that once the M-8 buttons up it is invulnerable to small arms and MG fire, unless the small arms or MG have a height advantage or get close enough for grenades.

Tony

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Francesco:

Why not give it a pounch with a AT rifle (panzerbuchse) or some GOOD shots from a sharpshooter?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, this was around move 20 of a 25-move TCPIP, and the infantry on my left had just expended their Panzerfaust immobilizing then killing the opponent's last Jumbo, a nearby machinegun watched the M8 race by picking his nose, and my Panzerschrecks were up near the front waiting to sandbag approaching enemy armor.

I had additional infantry some distance to the right, but there was no way I could have brought them around in time, not to mention that would have meant leaving the center of my position without a reserve.

Since I had two tanks near the mobile artilery unit and my Jumbo-killing infantry was straddling the road to the left, I really did not suspect that an enemy armored car had any chance to do any serious damage.

I seriously under-estimated the ease with which this unit could race through my position -I don't think that any unit actually even shot at it. The whole thing lasted only three or four minutes.

In retrospect, had I known what was going to happen, as soon as I saw where the M8 was headed, I should have started to rotate my artillery and tanks to get ready to meet him - one Wespe actually had him in his sights for about 30 seconds. Being welcomed by fire from 2 Wespes, a Hummel and one or two Panzers might give him second thoughts.

Henri

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dittohead:

I doubt very seriously you could find any examples of M-8's tearing around taking on tanks and what not. Most M-8 cmdrs would not risk their vehicle or men on suicide type missions.

What? Designed for the same mission as the M18

The only problem I see is that once the M-8 buttons up it is invulnerable to small arms and MG fire, unless the small arms or MG have a height advantage or get close enough for grenades.

Tony<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the M8 and M18 were originally designed for the same mission and had the same gun.

[Banshee]

I try to have 1 or 2 German 20mm's in support positions. They do wonders for taking out everything up to and including TD's. They eat M8's for breakfast.

I think your opponent just matched up the M8's strength (speed,high ROF), against your weakness, and got a little lucky. But he made his own luck.

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[busboy]

To my knowlage, the M8 was designed around the U.S.'s entery into WW2 as a recon vehicle, not a tank destroyer. At the time it was designed, we were upgunning because we knew the 37mm was obsolete.

Also, the M18 was designed towards the war's end as a highly mobile tank destroyer. It was armed with a high velocity M1A1 76mm gun (I think a different gun than that mounted on the 76mm shermans?) This is NOT the same 37mm gun as on the Greyhound.

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busboy

CO, 99th Dragons

A Warbirds Squadron

'We will heat you up'

"It is well that war is so terrible, else we would grow too fond of it."

-Robert E. Lee

[Marlow]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by busboy:

To my knowlage, the M8 was designed around the U.S.'s entery into WW2 as a recon vehicle, not a tank destroyer. At the time it was designed, we were upgunning because we knew the 37mm was obsolete.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The M8 was the ultimate result of a 1941 US Army request for a new wheeled Gun Motor Carriage as part of its new Tank Destroyer Force. The requirements for the vehicle included a turret mounted 37mm gun (the standard anti-tank gun at the time). The prototype was designated the T22 (I think), and the production model the M8. Once deployed, the gun was found wanting as an anti-tank weapon, and the M-8 was re-deployed in the more traditional armored car role.

[Wild_Bill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wwb_99:

Force(Armor pierciing potential) = Mass (Weight of shell) * Acceleration (Muzzle velocity)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Acceleration and velocity are NOT the same! The units for velocity are (in meteric) meters/second, aceleration is meters/ second squared.

But I do agreee that the 37mm was an excellent weapon. It remained in service throughout the war, because it was able to get kills!

[Wild_Bill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wwb_99:

Force(Armor pierciing potential) = Mass (Weight of shell) * Acceleration (Muzzle velocity)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Acceleration and velocity are NOT the same! The units for velocity are (in meteric) meters/second, aceleration is meters/ second squared.

But I do agreee that the 37mm was an excellent weapon. It remained in service throughout the war, because it was able to get kills!

[Wilhammer]

On an M-8 website (link is at home) a story is told by a vet of waiting in Ambush with his M-8, watching a Tiger go by, driving out at high speed to point blank range, and pumping 37 mm shells into the ass end of the Tiget until it was killed, then he got the hell out of there.

[Guest wwb_99]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wild_Bill:

Acceleration and velocity are NOT the same! The units for velocity are (in meteric) meters/second, aceleration is meters/ second squared.

But I do agreee that the 37mm was an excellent weapon. It remained in service throughout the war, because it was able to get kills!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I stand corrected, but the basic idea stands. Small fast shell hits as hard as big slow one.

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by busboy:

To my knowlage, the M8 was designed around the U.S.'s entery into WW2 as a recon vehicle, not a tank destroyer. At the time it was designed, we were upgunning because we knew the 37mm was obsolete.

Also, the M18 was designed towards the war's end as a highly mobile tank destroyer. It was armed with a high velocity M1A1 76mm gun (I think a different gun than that mounted on the 76mm shermans?) This is NOT the same 37mm gun as on the Greyhound.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The M18 design was started in 1941 and called for a 37mm gun and came from the same mission specifications of the M8. The specs called for a 37mm gun. This was changed after the first two models were made to a 57mm gun (called the T49), then a 75mm gun (the T67), and went into production with a 76mm gun (T70 then M18). Unlike the Greyhound, it could take a new gun in the turret and only needed redesign, but the redesign delayed its production.

[Mr. Hankey]

I think Henri is basically congratulating his opponent on taking what is almost universally considered an inferior force and using it to its best advantage. To win with allies is tough and you just can't sit behind your big armor plate and hope the shells bounce off you. Allies have to be quick, attack in groups (which allies almost never have the luxury of doing), and then vanish. I think it's very difficult to do.

It's really kind of funny when people complain if their allied opponent simply outplays them and wins. "Ohh, the (insert Allied AFV dejour) gun is overmodeled. It killed my Tiger with a flank shot." Well, excuse me, as was mentioned before, that's probably what it's supposed to do. I'm no military genius, but I do know that in this game, if you get beat, you simply made more mistakes than the other guy, and possibly had a bit of bad luck. I don't buy into the "this or that is over/under modeled" excuses. At this late date in the games development, i.e. nearly perfect, it's simply the guy calling the shots and lady luck that decides. Thanks for your time. Great story, BTW.