SMG

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

The SMG infantry just rocks. Yes, it has to be well handled. But it does what infantry is supposed to do, but more so. To wit, hold ground, or kill people in cover by moving right on top of them. Yes, other types have better ranged fire. But ranged infantry fire does not kill if the target has any form of cover - it only pins (and burns ammo). Artillery and tanks can kill from range, but infantry kills in close (attack or defense or counterattack, it doesn't matter). That is what I want infantry to do, and the VGers do it like nobody else, and cheaply too.

[Pvt.Tom]

You are correct, but sometimes it is very hard to get that close the the enemy and keep any men alive, let alone not broken.

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net:

The SMG infantry just rocks. Yes, it has to be well handled. But it does what infantry is supposed to do, but more so. To wit, hold ground, or kill people in cover by moving right on top of them. Yes, other types have better ranged fire. But ranged infantry fire does not kill if the target has any form of cover - it only pins (and burns ammo). Artillery and tanks can kill from range, but infantry kills in close (attack or defense or counterattack, it doesn't matter). That is what I want infantry to do, and the VGers do it like nobody else, and cheaply too.

AND

if you "buy" it in Nov 44 you can get at a time before that Allies get better supplies of tungsten after Jan 45.

so yes having been on the recieving end of VG SMG squads I can atest to the fact that they do Rock!

-tom w

[Forever Babra]

I dunno. They do have their upside. I just had a veteran rifle squad break after taking only two casualties from an SMG squad. On the other hand, I mowed down a hell of a lot of them while they tried to close the range. I've also played that the other way around and it hurts to close that gap sometimes. Like any unit, properly employed they will yield good results.

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"Za Rodentia!"

[The Commissar]

A good way to get the most out of your SMG's is to keep them hidden. This goes especially well for Defense and Meeting Engagements.

With either one, your opponent will be coming in your direction and if the terrain has a lot of cover (I never buy SMG's when I dont have a lot of buildings or woods on the map) it is easy to conceal your men in it. When those Rifle squads setp on you, open up and most will be wiped out/broken within seconds.

On the attack it gets trickier, but if you manage to close that distance which can be painful, they are still very good.

Note that the VG SMG's make closing the distance very painful, seeing as how you only have 8 men. When even a few of those get killed, efficiency is greatly reduced. Which is why I LOVE Girbsjager (butchered spelling, forgive me). However, I have heard from a generally ticked off PBEM opponent that the mountain troops were a rarity on the Western front. Oh well...

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[von Lucke]

Try the Volksgrenadier Fusilier SMG platoon: Two 9-man SMG squads and a Fusilier squad. Advance with the SMG squads while the Fusilier provides cover fire. Or alternately, split the Fusilier squad to use as scouts while yr SMG squads stay hidden until the enemy is located.

[Guest Pillar]

I nominate this "Shortest Jason Cawley Post Ever".

[CATguy]

The tactic I use to counter smg squads is to engage them at ranges of 100+ meters and keep that distance and force them to fire thus depleting their ammunition, This usually is the deciding factor. Hopefully if they try to close you can inflict heavy casualties before they are a threat.

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Ah, you plinkers at range at the SMGs, don't you know that is only an invitation to "skulking"? They just slink to the backside of their cover and break LOS. You wanna come rush into their cover, now that the open ground in front of them looks so clear? Good luck.

As for attacking, two main methods. On the one hand covered routes, and on the other suppression by artillery, tanks, and HMGs. Run them right into the enemy cover positions the moment a barrage lifts, for example.

Everything you really need (squad) infantry for, they are good at. All the things other infantry types are better at, are jobs really meant for non-infantry arms or teams (FOs, MGs, tanks, etc).

At 80-100 yards, the firepower is fine, and squad infantry fire at men in cover beyond that range, is usually an ineffective waste of ammo. If you want to block areas of open ground a long way off, use an HMG.

[LuckyStrike]

Guess you'll be having lotsa fun with the PPSh-41 packing Russian squads in CM2 then!

[chrisl]

SMGs do rock, but I've also seen US 12-man rifle squads beat them to a pulp at close range--sometimes very quickly. I'm playing a large operation right now with british para and glider squads defending-- those guys really rock too. Pretty much vaporizing the advancing troops.

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"If you can taste the difference between caviar on a cracker and ketchup on a Kit-Kat while blindfolded, you have not had enough aquavit to be ready for lutefisk." (stolen from some web page about lutefisk)

[Warmaker]

SMG platoons to me are a very poor man's Pioniere platoons. While lacking the explosives they do have good close assault traits. BUT, I don't rely on them for important objectives. Gaurding flanks or working in dense terrain is what they're really limited to or urban settings. Engaging rifle squads at 100m? A waste of ammo and setting your troops up as paper targets. Save those little 9mm bullets for those close assaults! Weapons like the American M1 Garands and BARs have MUCH more bite and still do quite well in closer ranges. Only in <25m ranges do the SMG's excel. There's reasons why all military forces don't solely equip with SMGs. I've said it before as in other posts: You're better off picking Rifle Platoons or better yet Panzergrenadiers. If you're really set on seizing an objective with infantry, Pioniere/assault engineers are your REAL specialists. They have enough automatic weapons and the demolitions to do the job. And the Panzergrenadiers, in particular Waffen-SS units, have something MUCH, MUCH better than the MP-40... the MP-44/Sturmgewehr-44. Select a unit having some of those and hit "enter" and look at the firepower and effective ranges. Best infantryman's weapon in the game, it's just that Germany was never got around to equipping every man with one. May not have the high firepower of the SMG's at very short ranges but it doesn't fall much further. In addition, they do VERY well at extended ranges. More bang for the buck.

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[Warmaker]

Oh, BTW for other German players who seem to like automatic weapons, take a look at the Fallschirmjagers. You may like what you see. For some reason, not that many people play as FJ. A shame really, they're a good outfit and equipped quite nicely to the point that IMO they're equipped better than the Waffen-SS infantry units. After all, Hitler loved his "Green Devils" since the start of WWII and outfitted them as such.

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[This message has been edited by Warmaker (edited 03-10-2001).]

[ParaBellum]

I don't like the VG SMG squads too much. The main problem IMHO is that when you get hit and just loose 2 men their ability to fight against the larger enemy squads is greatly reduced.

I beat a lot of SMG squads with a combination of mortar fire and infantry attacks. When you weaken them before the close assault you've already half won...

I'd rather buy Panzergrenadiere.

They're good at close range and those 2 LMGs gives them great long range firepower!

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Klotzen, nicht kleckern!

[Tanaka]

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

... When you weaken them before the close assault you've already half won...

This is an universal statement, it is true for everything

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

"Pz Gdrs are better", "can't take hits", "firing at 100m is a waste" - these are the arguments people advance against VG-SMGs. But they only show an evaluation limited to addition, and unaware of the two-fer nature of price, and they do not pay attention to the vagaries of CM ammo.

When you have a cheaper price, you get more of the item. That means more firepower, and more defensive, staying power too. Motorized Pz Gdr platoon cost 4/3rds what SMG platoons do. Which means in return for three of them, you can have either 4 SMG platoons, or 3 SMG platoons and 4 HMG-42 teams.

The costs are 387 or 471 for the Pz Gdrs as regulars and veterans respectively, vs. 372/466 for 4 SMG platoons, and 391/478 for 3 SMG platoons plus 4 HMG-42 teams.

The Mot. Pz Gdr gives 102 men. The others give 112 men (4 platoons) or 108 men (w/MGs). So much for the pretended extra staying power of 2 more men per squad.

The firepower of Mot. Pz Gdrs are 250 yards is 79. The firepower of SMGs at 100 yards is 72. Even ignoring that there are more of the latter, if firing with SMGs at 100 yards is pointless, then so is firing at 250 yards with Mot. Pz Gdrs. But better firepower at that range is the only reason to prefer the Pz Gdrs.

The ratios of firepower of the forces with the same cost, at the various ranges, are as follows.

4 SMG/3 PG - 1.54/.85/.42/.42

3SMG+4HMGs/3 PG - 1.42/.99/.74/.87

The firepower up close is much higher with the SMGs, by about half-again. At ~80-100 yards, the firepower is about the same with either option. The PGs give better firepower beyond that, especially in the 250 yard range and against pure SMG without MG support.

The real trade you are making when you take PGs, is better firepower at long range (from those 6 LMGs vs. 2 LMGs in the VG SMG platoon), in return for less firepower in close, and marginally lower staying power (total men).

In addition, though, the ammo characteristics favor the VGs, and heavily so. When HMGs are taken, they obviously provide far more ammo, enough to shoot at range without it being wasteful. But the PGs get 40 shots. At 250 yards, they are basically just firing the 2 LMGs, but *all* the squads can't afford to do that for long, if you want to have ammo for close-in shooting.

The VGs can fire just the Hvy SMG squads at that range, and/or HMGs, so they are getting the long-ranged firepower figures in the above tables by shooting with only 1/3 to 1/2 of their units. That works better with overwatch, and it works better in terms of retaining ammo for the high expenditure, close-up fights.

There is another important consideration. The PGs firepower ratio at range is good, but that occurs with an absolute firepower that is far lower than the short ranges at which the SMGs excel. And this interacts with the ammo considerations. I will explain.

Assume the Hvy SMG and PG squads fire their 40 shots at a breakdown of ranges 15-15-10. The SMGs fire theirs at ranges split 20-20-0, with HQs the same. Assume the HMGs get off 60 of their 95 shots, with ranges split 10-20-30. Call this the "total potential fire" = TPF; obviously units hit will reduce it and not all units will expend their ammo, but it allows comparison. Then TPFs in thousands are -

PG - 37.0+21.6+7.1 = 65.7

Pure SMG - 68.3+21.4+1.9 = 91.6

SMG+HMG - 57.4+26.1+10.7 = 94.2

You can tweak the assumptions if you like, but the basic story will remain the same. The PGs cannot *both* exploit their ranged fp edge, and still have the ammo to get anywhere near what the SMGs can do up close.

The PGs are only superior at ranges above 100 yards, and only to the pure SMG. And this superiority occurs at exactly the place where the overall scale of the firepower is *lowest*, and at ranges where it is wasteful to expend too much ammo. The contribution of this edge to TPF is thus quite low, around 1/6th the scale of the SMG edge on the other (short) end of the range scale, with the ammo-use breakdown I estimated.

So even vs. pure SMG, it only makes sense to prefer the PGs if you think you aren't going to get that many close-range shots. To me, that is akin to saying, "the PGs are better infantry, in cases where your infantry is ineffective and useless, because it fails to close with the enemy or vice versa."

And even this edge, the PGs do not have against the SMG - HMG blend. The pure firepower ratios give an edge to the PGs at range in that comparison, ~4/3rds at 250 yards (the .74 figure in the earlier table). But this firepower is not realistically available, because the PGs do not have the ammo to blaze away contentedly at 250 yards, while the HMGs *do*. As the TPF numbers above suggest, the SMG+HMG blend can achieve higher firepower at all ranges, with realistic ammo contraints taken into account. I only counted the HMGs for 60 shots, not 95.

Low cost is a two-fer. It gives defensive depth in units, and more firepower for the cheaper choice than single-squad comparisons say. The SMGs *can* afford to firefight at 100 yards, because there are more of them to do it and they can expend more of their ammo loads at those ranges, since 2/3rds of the squads never fire at longer ranges.

Individually, one can look at 132 fp at 100 yards from a 10-man PG squad, vs. 72 fp at 100 yards from an 8-man SMG squad. It looks like no contest, that the PGs are 50% better at offense and defense combined. But the SMG platoons also have 1xHvy SMG, and they cost 3/4ths as much so they can afford greater numbers or HMG support, and they don't waste as much ammo at longer range plinking with 2 LMGs.

What are the PGs actually better at? They move their LMGs fast, while HMG teams are slow. So they can get long-ranged firepower onto a position more rapidly. The SMGs move close-range firepower quickly, but not their medium range firepower.

If you need to quickly occupy a position, from which you will need to dish out long-ranged fire - e.g. to cover open ground beyond an objective, not just to protect the shooters but also flanking open ground areas, say - then the PGs are ideal. The VGs would have to clear the objective, and then wait for HMGs to make their way forward. Even this edge can be reduced by timely "StuG-taxi" service for HMGs, but it is the one place the PGs stand out.

They may also be more forgiving of mistakes in employment, or flexible to changes in plans. Because they pack the various forms of firepower into fewer, larger units with all-around capabilities and speed, snafus from the wrong weapon in the wrong place are much easier to avoid.

Properly handled to use the "depackaged" capabilities, the SMGs still rock, and if you want ranged firepower buy the excellent HMG-42 teams to suppliment them.

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by Tanaka:

This is an universal statement, it is true for everything

Hehe, thx...

But with those SMG squads just one or two casualties will result in a 2:1 advantage (in men, not firepower) to an enemy rifle squad...

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Klotzen, nicht kleckern!

[Guest Pillar]

Jason,

Beginning to feel your efforts are a bit futile?

I have some questions:

What can do the same job as an SMG squad?

I like your analysis regarding the HMG teams ability to supplant the rifle at long range.

Anyhow, I'd like to revive this one a little. Looking forward to your response to that question and maybe we can open this up some more.

[109 Gustav]

Originally posted by LuckyStrike:

Guess you'll be having lotsa fun with the PPSh-41 packing Russian squads in CM2 then!

I wonder if BTS will bother to simulate the advantage the PPSh 41 had because of it's 71 round drum. Probably not, but it would be nice to watch Russian SMG troops shoot...and shoot...and shoot.

According to German troops on the East Front, their MP40s were somewhat outclassed for this reason. To equalise this perceived disadvantage, the Germans produced the MP 40/II which used two 32 round stick magazines side by side. Due to it's complexity and awkwardness of use, few were manufactured.

------------------

Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

The Last Defense- Mods, Scenarios, and more!

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

Pillar asks what can do the same job as an SMG squad. Not much, is my answer - in CM as it stands.

The people who are *supposed* to get a similar job in the U.S. army, in some respects, are the combat engineers. Their flamethrowers and demo charges are supposed to give them the close in firepower to whack anything, including enemy infantry.

In CM, the closest approximation on the Allied side are the parachute infantry, with their mix of BAR, 2 SMG, 2 carbine, 5 M-1, and an added 3-man MMG for each squad.

These troop types cost twice what VG SMG squads cost. 180 for the paras, and 205 for the engineers. The paras have 50 men for that price, though 5 of them are the 60mm mortar crew and not terribly useful as infantry, so call it 45 fighters. The engineers 44.

That means either type gets 5/3rds the manpower of the VG SMG platoon. However, the point difference is a larger effect than this. The SMGs get 20% more fighters per point spent than the paras, and 41% more than the engineers.

In firepower, the Paras have more on a platoon-to-platoon basis, but nothing like enough to cover twice the cost. They get about 11% more FP at close range, and 75% more at 100 yards, but if you include the cost/numbers, the situation reverses and the SMGs have 74% more in close and 11% more at 100 yards, per point spent. The engineers are out-shot in close and marginally better at 100 yards on a platoon vs. platoon basis, but swamped 3:1 close and 2:1 at medium range when cost is included.

But in return, these special infantry types get gammon bombs, demo charges, flamethrower teams for the engineers, a zook and a mortar for the paras. Do these things give more bang than SMGs in close? No, not in practice.

Here is a simple test. An SMG platoon is dug in in ordinary woods with a "sea" of scattered trees in front of it. The Americans attack with a para platoon on-line, twice the cost. The paras actually outlasted the SMGs, losing 37 men to 23, but retaining 13 rather than 5.

At the end the paras had a mortar team, 1 immobile MG gunner, 1 zook-man out of ammo, a 2-man HQ, and a 4-man half squad. The Germans had a 2-man HQ and a 3-man half-squad (SMG). Both sides were out of ammo, and one tile of the original German position was on fire from a zook round. Neither was going to do anything further. Basically, an even exchange occurred, platoon for platoon, with 2:1 attacker odds in points spent, and foxholes on the other side.

Over on another part of the same little field, a platoon of engineers tries the same thing. They KO'ed 8 Germans and were left with a single man at the end, who managed to run faster than his comrades when they broke. Neither flamethrower fired a shot, despite visibility being limited to ~40 yards, within their 45-yard theoretical maximum range.

No doubt they could have been used better, e.g. area firing at the extreme edge of LOS before having a visible target. What actually happened, though, is 3 squads were "sneaking" close enough for LOS, with the 2 FTs "moving" between them but trailed slightly. When the firefight began, 1 man was hit in an engineer squad, 2 in another which was also pinned - and all 4 FT operators were KO'ed instantly. Within 30 seconds of their last order, and more like the first 10-15 seconds of the engagement.

Now, 2 FT teams theoretically have up to 12 shots, with 200 blast for each and special morale effects. But they have the staying power of 4 men, and with hazardous cover it seems, targeting like magnets, slow movement, worse range than an MP-40, 6 shots rather than 40 maximum - and they cost 37 points apiece. 2 FTs cost as much as the 3 squads in a VG SMG platoon, the balance of the platoon price being the cost of the HQ.

Is there anybody who thinks 2 FTs have more combat power in CM today, than the infantry of a VG SMG platoon? I mean, *besides* the people at Battlefront who set the prices. "But the FTs can also hurt vehicles". And the VGs come with 4-5 panzerfaust, and live long enough to fire them if targets get that close, too.

Incidentally, 1 engineer squad got close enough, with 9 men remaining, to throw 2 demo charges in succession, from a range of about 10 meters, at a SMG half-squad in a wooded foxhole. The target squad was down to 4 men before the charges were thrown. It still had 4 men, but suppressed, when the second charge when off. The engineers reduced it to a single man in close combat and by fire, before the last 3 engineers panicked - in part from the fire of a neighboring German squad that advanced out of cover and got LOS.

It is to me rather silly that the engineers, with 2 flamethrowers and after managing to set 2 demo charges, and costing 14% more than the paras in part because of it, were shot down almost to a man. While the lone bazooka in the para platoon, set a 20x20 area of forest on fire, getting 2 Germans in the process.

A 60mm rocket did much more than 2 bags of TNT placed from 10 yards away. And was more likely to smoke the Germans out, than 2 back-packs full of ignitable gasoline. I've noticed in the past, incidentally, that a zook is adequate to take out the typical wooden bunker too. Sorta makes the engineers' heavier weapons rather pointless. And they usually don't work anyway.

I think whatever benefit troops are getting targeting FTs ought to be toned down. And the price of the things is too high by a factor of 2 - they should have prices around the cost of a bazooka or an MMG. "But they are so much more powerful". Not when they are dead they aren't, and well more than half the time they are dead before they pull a trigger.

And demo charges should do something to infantry when throw at them, and not hand-grenade "something". More like 100 blast "something", or more. A bag of 5-10 lbs TNT is a very large charge compared to the explosive in common shells, which is e.g. only about 1 lb for a 81mm.

The right price for a FT is ~18, not 37 points. Then a U.S. engineer platoon with a zook added would cost the same as a para platoon, not 22% more for less combat power. If you are afraid too many people will take too many of them, then restrict them to the engineer and pioneer platoons.

In the meantime, SMGs still just rock, and no you can't counteract them with engineers, as things stand. Paras are better, but cost twice as much per platoon so you will not "match" them that way either.

[109 Gustav]

Don't forget about British and Polish paratroops. I like them better than the amis, becuase they don't have all the M1919s and mortars. Then there's British glider troops. Roughly the same weapons blance as the paras, but with only 7 men per squad, they are both much cheaper and greatly handicapped.

Any type of squad has its advantages, and when used properly, it can tear through any other squad. Nothing beats the 100m firepower of US rifles, but for all around balance, you can't do better than SS motorised. SMG troops do excel at close range fighting, but that's only one of the four divisions of firepower- Long range, midrange, close, and balanced (all ranges.) They are worse than useless at long range, have very little firepower at midrange, and obviously lack balanced firepower. Therefore, they excell at 1/4 of combat situations. Hardly uber-troops.

------------------

Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

The Last Defense- Mods, Scenarios, and more!

[jasoncawley@ameritech.net]

When was the last time infantry squad fire at 500 yards meant diddly to you in an actual fight? You can blow your entire ammo load at that range, with any squad type you please, at men moving through scattered trees - and you will not do diddly to them. The last range bracket is meaningless. Fire at that range is done by heavy weapons - HMGs, mortars, tanks, guns, and artillery fire.

You said "nothing beats American rifles at 100 meters". You are joking, right? An M-1 has less firepower at 100 meters than any SMG (7 vs. 9). Close, but less. Rifles do not pass SMGs in firepower until you get beyond 100 yards.

Do not mistake the effect of paying more for a larger group, with the firepower achieved for the same price. The firepower of an M-1 at 250 yards, meanwhile, is 3. Yes, 3 is higher than 1/2. Neither is a large figure. All the rifles in a full-strength U.S. squad have the firepower of 1 LMG-42 at 250 yards.

Ranged firepower is produced by MGs. Close range firepower (~100 yards) is produced by all infantry weapons, and point-blank fire is produced in boatloads by SMGs. Rifles are better than SMGs, at ranges where infantry squads are ineffective anyway,if shooting into cover. The only range they are both better and likely to hit anything themselves, is the 125-250 yard "bracket".

As anyone who has been on a rifle range could have guessed, incidentally. Inside the lower figure you do not have to be accurate to hit, and the key thing is whose head is down, thus total rounds being thrown. Beyond the higher figure you aren't going to hit moving targets regularly anyway.

And in that range bracket, 175 yards or so, the U.S. 1944 squad musters the same firepower as 2 LMG-42, 75 fp. You can indeed afford to fire at those ranges against troops in the open, trying to cross a field or something. But shooting into average, wood or light building cover you will not seriously harm anyone at such ranges.

I already mentioned that shooting at that range, is about the only reason to take German squads like the mot. Pz Gdr. Their 2 LMG-42s alone have as much firepower as the U.S. squad, in that range bracket. Beyond that, infantry fire (as opposed to MG teams) is pointless and a waste of ammo.

As for the Brit gliders, let's look at them indeed. They are another cheap platoon (103 as regulars) with small squads and automatic weapons. The platoon costs 10 points more than the VG-SMG. You get a 2" mortar for those points. The Brits also get a 2-man PIAT, while the VGers get 4-5 fausts. The number of men overall is the same, but the British squads a 1 man less since some are in these teams. The VGers have 47% more firepower at 40 yards, and 19% more firepower at 100 yards. Indeed, you'd have to shoot 5 men in the VG platoon - 1/5th of the men in the "line" squads - to reduce its firepower to the level of the British one, in both range brackets.

At longer range, 250 yards, the Brits have 3 Bren and 9 Enfield, against 2 MG-42 in the German platoon. That gives the Germans 80% as much firepower, spending only 1/3rd the ammo to get it. The Brits are marginally better at the longer range where less is done, if they spend lots of ammo. The Germans fully balance this with better firepower around 100 yards. And pick up 50% higher firepower at point-blank as a "gimme".

"Not uber-troops". What they are is cheap. And cheap is good. They are, as I stated at the begining, a kind of essence of infantry. Everything infantry is in relation to other arms and teams, and more so. Yes, they require better handling, than the flexible "how can I screw this up?" Motorized Pz Gdr or Fallschirmjaeger. But they give much more bang for the buck when used correctly.

Incidentally, another benefit of using MG teams for ranged fire instead of the line squads - or only one of them out of three - is that the enemy doesn't have to see you. Yes, he sees the MG or whatever. But an MG is not quite so good an artillery target as a full infantry platoon. With the "essence of infantry" approach, you can stay hidden until the infantry firepower is truly needed, and when the range is long you can hide the full platoons, and let the MGs (and guns and tanks) cover the open ground areas.

All of these are good tactics with most infantry types. It is just that the SMG platoons are "built" to do them, and not to do other things. Consider it built in fire discipline...

[109 Gustav]

I really should go to bed, but I'll answer this instead.

Originally posted by jasoncawley@ameritech.net:

When was the last time infantry squad fire at 500 yards meant diddly to you in an actual fight? You can blow your entire ammo load at that range, with any squad type you please, at men moving through scattered trees - and you will not do diddly to them. The last range bracket is meaningless. Fire at that range is done by heavy weapons - HMGs, mortars, tanks, guns, and artillery fire.

You are right. I should have been more clear. By "long range," I meant roughly 125-225m, which is long range for an infantry platoon.

You said "nothing beats American rifles at 100 meters". You are joking, right? An M-1 has less firepower at 100 meters than any SMG (7 vs. 9). Close, but less. Rifles do not pass SMGs in firepower until you get beyond 100 yards.

Hate to admit it, but you're right. I never noticed that before. Not only that, but rifles and SMGs cost the same amount of points, at least for the Germans. For example, a security platoon of 5 rifles and 3 SMGs costs the same as a rifle 44 platoon of 6 rifles and 2 SMGS.

As for the Brit gliders, let's look at them indeed. They are another cheap platoon (103 as regulars) with small squads and automatic weapons. The platoon costs 10 points more than the VG-SMG. You get a 2" mortar for those points. The Brits also get a 2-man PIAT, while the VGers get 4-5 fausts.

I may be wrong here too, but I thought the average was 3 fausts. Plus, you get gammon bombs (I know, they're no better than grenades, but you still get them). Not only that, but if you want to cover every 2 platoons with a shreck/PIAT, then the gliders are cheaper. I prefer to consider their cost to be 90 points per platoon, because you save 13 points that you would otherwise have to spend on AT assets.

The number of men overall is the same, but the British squads a 1 man less since some are in these teams. [/]

??? It's 29 men in the glider toons, 28 in the SMG toon.

------------------

Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

The Last Defense- Mods, Scenarios, and more!

[grunto2]

The German motorized infantry are the best. They have 10-men, 2 LMG and 2 MP-44, and one SMG, the other 5 being rifles.

The Panzergrenadier squad has the same thing with 8 men; 3 instead of 5 rifles.

I like these the best because of their MP44s.

The PIAT is becoming my favorite infantry AT weapon, simply because it can fire from inside of buildings because of its spring-launcher as opposed to the rocket propulsion used on the german and american infantry at weapons.

If you split them you lose a lot of morale. The don't fight as well split. However, you can put some into a scneario using the editor, then split them in map preview mode, and give every half squad maxed out demo charges and rifle grenades (american) or panzerfausts (german).

then effectively your squads could be carrying 4 demo charges and either 6 rocket grenades or 4 panzerfausts (100s of course -grin-).

one tactics article out on the web mentions that there is a benefit to splitting the 9-man german squad. the 4-man team is used as a manuever element and the 5-man team with the mg42 is used for overwatch.

it's not a bad idea.

the worst thing about half-squads is - again the amount of morale points you lose when you split up all of your squads.

i like to have a company of german armored cars with motorized half-squads riding them.

Andy

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

This table is firepower and firepower/cost(regular) at the five ranges. The first five fields are the firepower, than five fields divided by the regular units cost. The table should be suitable to be imported in a spreadsheet program.

The table is sorted by field 7, that is firepower/price at 100 meters.

My opinion on the German SMG squads is in the other SMG thread that was started the same day. I am not that positive about them. Please see the last posting in http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/017159.html

67 23 6 2 0 3.72 1.28 0.33 0.11 0.00 UK_PLATOON-HQ

47 23 9 3 0 2.61 1.28 0.50 0.17 0.00 US_PLATOON-HQ

130 38 6 2 0 4.48 1.31 0.21 0.07 0.00 UK_BATTALION-HQ

116 40 8 0 0 3.87 1.33 0.27 0.00 0.00 US_BATTALION-HQ

86 25 3 1 0 4.78 1.39 0.17 0.06 0.00 GR_PLATOON-HQ

176 44 0 0 0 5.87 1.47 0.00 0.00 0.00 GR_BATTALION-HQ

130 36 3 1 0 5.42 1.50 0.12 0.04 0.00 GR_COMPANY-HQ

116 38 9 3 0 4.64 1.52 0.36 0.12 0.00 UK_COMPANY-HQ

97 40 12 2 0 3.88 1.60 0.48 0.08 0.00 US_COMPANY-HQ

98 85 54 26 0 2.97 2.58 1.64 0.79 0.00 GR_VOLKSGRENADIER-PIONEER

209 105 45 17 0 5.36 2.69 1.15 0.44 0.00 US_ENGINEER

161 89 42 17 0 4.88 2.70 1.27 0.52 0.00 UK_ENGINEER

128 89 51 25 0 3.88 2.70 1.55 0.76 0.00 GR_PIONEER

150 91 47 23 0 4.84 2.94 1.52 0.74 0.00 GR_MOTORIZED-PIONEER

161 89 42 17 0 5.55 3.07 1.45 0.59 0.00 UK_RIFLE

209 105 45 17 0 6.15 3.09 1.32 0.50 0.00 US_RIFLE44

314 118 36 20 0 8.49 3.19 0.97 0.54 0.00 GR_GEBIRGSJAEGER-PIONEER

257 109 40 14 0 7.56 3.21 1.18 0.41 0.00 US_GLIDER

158 93 48 24 0 5.45 3.21 1.66 0.83 0.00 GR_RIFLE44

324 81 0 0 0 12.96 3.24 0.00 0.00 0.00 GR_FUSILIER-SMG

288 72 0 0 0 13.09 3.27 0.00 0.00 0.00 GR_SMG

231 95 34 12 0 7.97 3.28 1.17 0.41 0.00 US_PARATROOP

242 150 80 42 0 5.38 3.33 1.78 0.93 0.00 GR_PANZERGRENADIER-PIONEER

188 97 45 23 0 6.48 3.34 1.55 0.79 0.00 GR_SICHERUNG

230 124 57 23 0 6.22 3.35 1.54 0.62 0.00 US_RIFLE45

248 98 33 14 0 8.55 3.38 1.14 0.48 0.00 UK_AIRBORNE

110 88 60 47 30 4.23 3.38 2.31 1.81 1.15 US_M2

184 103 49 23 0 6.13 3.43 1.63 0.77 0.00 GR_RIFLE45

95 76 48 35 18 4.32 3.45 2.18 1.59 0.82 UK_VICKERS

95 76 48 35 18 4.32 3.45 2.18 1.59 0.82 US_M1917

180 95 44 22 0 6.67 3.52 1.63 0.81 0.00 GR_VOLKSGRENADIER

248 105 39 21 0 8.55 3.62 1.34 0.72 0.00 GR_FUSILIER

189 77 27 12 0 9.00 3.67 1.29 0.57 0.00 UK_GLIDER

84 66 40 27 0 4.67 3.67 2.22 1.50 0.00 US_M1919

314 118 36 20 0 9.81 3.69 1.12 0.62 0.00 GR_GEBIRGSJAEGER

292 159 75 39 0 6.79 3.70 1.74 0.91 0.00 GR_FALLSCHIRMJAEGER-PIONEER

204 94 38 20 0 8.50 3.92 1.58 0.83 0.00 GR_VOLKSSTURM

280 170 87 43 0 6.51 3.95 2.02 1.00 0.00 GR_STURMGRUPPE

234 148 79 41 0 6.32 4.00 2.14 1.11 0.00 GR_MOTORIZED

292 159 75 39 0 7.68 4.18 1.97 1.03 0.00 GR_FALLSCHIRMJAEGER

222 138 73 39 0 6.94 4.31 2.28 1.22 0.00 GR_PANZERGRENADIER

155 125 77 52 27 5.54 4.46 2.75 1.86 0.96 GR_HMG42

316 144 60 36 0 10.19 4.65 1.94 1.16 0.00 GR_HSMG

50 45 30 18 0 5.56 5.00 3.33 2.00 0.00 GR_MG42