Maximus Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 What mystery you ask??? The mystery of why FPS fans who come to CM have a hard time figuring out why CM is the way it is. Not to stir up a flame war here or anything, but just to shed a little light on this issue after hearing the viewpoint of a FPS/3rd Person Adventure game fan in person after showing him some CM screenshots. OK, the "test subject" was a 12 year old junior high student who is a HUGE fan of the Nintendo Zelda games. I know, I know, not a very good test subject, but given that someone's 5 year old is getting into CM that a 12 year old isn't a bad choice. So here goes with the test. OK, as the N64 Zelda games go, you control the character of Zelda in a 3rd person perspective and move around in a 3D world killing "baddies". OK, then I showed him a screenshot of the 4-pic montage of Marco's Shermans. His reaction was, "You control every man on the field?" And I'm like, "Yeah, it's a strategy wargame." He had a hard time understanding that you could control all the men on the field "because in Zelda you only control one guy, Link." So in summary, I think what throws a lot of FPS fans and the like is that since CM is in 3D they expect it to be revolved around the individual rather than a company or battalion. That's why FPS fans come here and start requesting all of these FPS-esk type features that will have no bearing or practicallity in CM. I remember someone asking about if CM could simulate medics going back and tending to the squad's injured...something you would expect from a FPS game like H&D or Operation Flashpoint. What they (FPS fans) fail to realize is that CM is a wargame and not just another 3D adventure game. So basically it's the 3D aspect of CM that confuses them. Any other thoughts on this matter? ------------------ For your dream car click here. For a Close Encounter click here. Hey look! I can see my house! And for all you Hamster Lovers out there, check this out! Kitty, this one's for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlh1138 Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 Maximus, I don't know if my experience counts, (I'm 58, not 12), but I came to CM from FPS. (Half life, Doom before that, etc. Also, Longbow and Jane's WWII Fighters) My initial 'confusion' was about the turn based nature of CM. I'd never played a turn based game, didn't like them, etc. I was puzzled by the stop and start nature of the 'wego' system. Then, the guy who had turned me on to CM pointed out it was like Chess, you sit and think, and then you move. Somehow, that made all the difference and I started playing the demo that had been sitting on my hard drive. Then, well, you know the rest... . So I wonder if FPS shooter folks are also new to turn based thinking. BTW, I still play and enjoy HF and the flying games. (In spite of the mild slur about 'fast twitch' that BTW runs on it's home page!) Hope this adds something to your thoughts on this. But maybe it only applies to old guys like me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhael Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 Wow. I don't know if this is just a wrong impression or somesuch, but it almost sounds like you're making FPS fans out to be complete incompetents. Any FPS fan who has even the tiniest inkling of interest in the gaming industry would have no problems grasping the concept of strategy and war games... in fact, most of them probably play a few. Please, please, please don't go stereotyping an entire group... especially in such a broad, incorrect manner. Shudder. I hate it when people do that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhael Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 Holy crap! Lookit that! I'm a full-fledged member now! Mikhael politely excuses himself to do the boogie dance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 Sadly, there are some who just don't or won't "get it". Take my cat for instance; he was always very interested in "the crumply paper ball". I patiently explained to him the more fulfilling merits of CMBO, pointing out how satisfying it is when the prey puts up a fight. He gave me a disinterested look, flopped over on the keyboard, and resumed batting at "the crumply paper ball". Go figure. ------------------ "Za Rodentia!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 On a serious note I think the point was missed. The test subject believed that you were saying that you could control everyone on the field with as much "control" as he could Link in Zelda which is of course wrong. If you give the average gamer the whole point of the TACAI's being they will look at you in disgust because who wants a game to do stuff for them. They lock onto well the game is stupid I am not so I wanna pick what happens. Total control is achieveable in Zelda or any other action, adventure, roleplaying, etc. etc. etc. At most players of today believe that StarCraft is way difficult because you havta think. And controlling every guy is a bitch. Of course if you try to alleviate that problem they complain that you are taking away control. They key is of course to have a great AI and not many games do. Lastly no matter how frustrated you are with CM charging guns a blaszing will not work for long even against the AI. This being introduced to game community that is used to losing at StarCraft and deciding that next time they are jsut gonna send a horde of Marines to win instead of the fancy stuff or I am just gonna make sure I get the G-9000 WAZZUP Blaster and kill so and so blah blah blah That is the playing difference of what I consider the Gamer DUDE and the true gamer. ------------------ Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb -Kryton of Red Dwarf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 You see, it's simple... CM gamers have "I.Q.'s" RTS gamers just have the "I" part. (Runs for bunker and prepares for the inevitable). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidas Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 Originally posted by Maximus: Any other thoughts on this matter? This is offensive and insulting. [This message has been edited by Leonidas (edited 03-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 Funny GOZ but remember that Rainbow 6 was originally marketed as an FPS. Red Storm got hounds of letters after it's release about people dying when they got hit and have no life bar. Of course just as many letters came in about how refreshing "true" squad combat was when compared to Quake or whatever FPS was king at that time. All of a sudden the game was a Sim or Strategy game and RED Storm marketed it as such. that is why when you go to GameSpot.com the Rainbow 6 series (which I play) is in the Simulation area not the action area. To the majority of gamers Warcraft 3 is the best strategy coming out and Harpoon 4 is about whaling! ------------------ Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb -Kryton of Red Dwarf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freak Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 I am not getting the point of this thread. Surely one particular case cannot speak for the dozens upon dozens of gamers out there fps or not. These two games require different ways of thought which may not be taught in one day. CMBO is as far as I know a revolutionary game. So for some people to "not get it" has to be expected. Can I expect a boy who loves to play Zelda to understand CMBO right away? No. Why? Zelda is probably all he plays. It takes time. It wont happen overnight. And BTW Zelda was quite revolutionary when it came out too. Hmmm. Kindamakes ya think... Ahh! [This message has been edited by Freak (edited 03-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 Uhm the thread is about how some CM players (see wargamers) do not get why other genre style players do not see CM's value even after exposed to it. The example may not bet the best but then again maximus states that. BTW I beat Zelda. I love the Final Fantasy series and until I read the historical account of the Sinking of the Bismark and played Panzer General I i was one of these people. I own every game system out and game non stop. It is good thing I have never drank or smokes or had any other crutches or my girlfriend would have left me by now! I consider myself a selective game player now than the whore I used to be even after Panzer General I. Example I own all the release titles that came with the PS1. I got them when they came out. Most sucked. Freak there is a difference with gamers out there. You can never seperate them totally because hey they are all different but this is the best I could do 1.) casual gamer 2.) Gamer DUDE!!!! 3.) Gamer Most of the player are gamers. That is what this thread is about. This is what my above posts are about. Any more questions? ------------------ Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb -Kryton of Red Dwarf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanco Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 What a bunch of crap. THIS! THIS!! is why I sometimes swear to never come back here. I guess people deep down need to be snobs about something, anything, so they can lord it over others. All I can say is this is the most biased and unscientific "analysis" I've ever read on this board. And yes, I'm disgusted. ------------------ DeanCo-- CM interface mods: http://mapage.cybercable.fr/deanco/ so many games...so little time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 I have to agree with DeanCo on this one. Drawing a 'them and us' line in the sand is unbelievably ignorant of the variety of people. I play loads of different games - I like CM and strategy-based games, but I've got Unreal Tournament and Quake III on my hard drive. Does that stick me in the 'twitch' box or the 'strategy' box? Neither. I don't fit in a box. A casual look down my list of games would not tell you a great deal - there's a fair bit of strategy, some god games, but sometimes I just want to pick up an uzi and shoot some bad guys. I think that some people don't see the fun in CM because it's not their kind of game. My brother yawns at CM. It's not his kind of game. He's not interested in the historical accuracy or in wargaming of any kind. I don't have a problem with that - and I don't see why some CM players should sneer at people because of their preferences. Furthermore, I disagree wholeheartedly with the notion that because CM has better graphics than the average wargame it is going to confuse FPS players. That comes pretty close to saying that because they play FPS, they aren't as clever as wargamers which as a generalisation is arrogant and wrong. Who was it that said "Variety is the spice of life?" Looks like Maximus started a minor grumble, if not a flame war - and one that may touch a raw nerve or two ------------------ "Woof!Woof!" That's my other dog impression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffinCheng+ Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 I go with DeanCo & Soddball. Don't sterotype. For me, I play almost all game types except adventure (can't figure out those "puzzles") and RTS (can't keep up with it). It helps to ease the problem of "Combation Mission Beyond Overload". I remember playing a lot of computer AD&D and when "Planescape: Torment" came out, I don't realize it could be played this way until I read CGO's strategy guide (no spoilers). Well, along with the GREATEST storyline of RPG, PS:T is my favourite CRPG of all time! As a counter example, there are some Japanese and Korean RPGs (and also "Legend of Korndor" from Sierra) which involve turn-based "tactical" combats. They are not exactly Zelda. Some games are great as such they twisted a bit of the way of the game is played, even they are of the same genre. So please remember one thing making CMBO so great is WEGO system and its unique (for now) 3D view. Now back to the Falcon 4.0 office desktop. Arrgh! I am still stuggling will all the patches and mods! Griffin. ------------------ "When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI." "Can't get enough Tank?" Come to my Combat Missing Command Post (CMCP) at http://www.angelfire.com/games3/CMCP/ [This message has been edited by GriffinCheng+ (edited 03-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Smurf Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 I agree with Priest - (people not getting the hang of having the AI actually do all the "fun stuff" and not having total control over every unit), in fact that's the reason why my brother (a fairly mature & experienced gamer) is resisting aCMillation (or WTF it is). Neil ------------------ I don't sing. I don't dance. I ain't blue. Anything else you need to know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 Last night I played Counter-Strike for about five hours. Dang, guess I don't understand CM anymore. ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffinCheng+ Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 Sanity is going on lose here, please lock this up! ------------------ "When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI." "Can't get enough Tank?" Come to my Combat Missing Command Post (CMCP) at http://www.angelfire.com/games3/CMCP/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MantaRay Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 You know Maximus, you sit at your keyboard and feel that you have to be the sole authority on everything. Like take you thread about not discussing other games the other day. Well what is the difference between what that guy did and what you have just done? This has no purpose being here, and comparrisons like this have been rehashed to death too. Just because you aren't skilled at using the brain and the mouse/keyboard at the same time, doesn't make you an expert on anything. And if you ever actually had played some of the new games like WWIIOL or OFP, and made an opinion, maybe it would have merits. But you always seem to have the "divine truth" about everything. And by the way, I play FPS games so much, I may not have use of my wrist someday. But I have no problem playing CM, nor do I have a problem shooting people in a FPS. See I am talented that way, and I dont sit here and think of ways I can make BS up so everyone believes me. And when I was 12, I couldnt have cared less about CM, I was busy chasing girls and playing sports. Maximus Wrote: "What they (FPS fans) fail to realize is that CM is a wargame and not just another 3D adventure game. So basically it's the 3D aspect of CM that confuses them." WOW, what a brilliant assesment! Take you all night to figure that one out? I would have never guessed that since CM is about WWII, that it was a wargame. ------------------ When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one." Click now for shelter from the Peng thread New Site of the PLA:Rugged Defense Group Ladder The Red Army Mirror [This message has been edited by MantaRay (edited 03-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanco Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 Glad to meet ya, Griffin. I never could figure out those puzzles in adventure games either. To this day that's the only kind of game I don't play. Come on, how am I supposed to know to put the mustard on the flagpole?? ------------------ DeanCo-- CM interface mods: http://mapage.cybercable.fr/deanco/ so many games...so little time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 Hmm, maybe CM2 could add some quests like; to get the Panther to a hull down position, it must first acquire some fuel from a truck, but to find the truck, the crew must first talk with the Quartermaster HQ, who requires the proper requsition form be filled out. From there then, the Panther crew would have to acquire the proper requisition form, and that quest would take them on a search for the Corporal who had the forms. Finding him, they discover the form has to be typed in triplicate, so from there, they must find a typewriter and carbon paper. Fighting their way dismounted through boobytrapped large cavernous buildings and thickly wooded areas where wolves and Allied trolls await them in ambush and the like on their quest for the proper implements. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 03-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanco Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 LOL!!!! Gotta split now unfortuately, but I have some dialogue from "Combat Mission : Colonel Klink's Big Adventure" I will post later.... hohohoho..... ------------------ DeanCo-- CM interface mods: http://mapage.cybercable.fr/deanco/ so many games...so little time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 OK guys settle down, I think the young lad is trying to make a point but as is the curse of youth has "no idea how to do it". So rather than get all high and might "Harummph...how dare he, I play FPS all the time" let's try and be constructive. I think his point underlines why the wargaming genre is "fringe" in the first place. And anybody who doesn't think we are can go check the best seller lists at PC mag or something. FPS far outsell and out-hype anywargame on a regular basis. In the past it was because the old wargames weren't sexy or all that exciting unless you really got into them and had a passion for the genre. CM is 3-D and looks good. So I am sure there has been plenty of people checking it out, who have no experience in wargaming. In fact I have read articles stating as much. So when they get to play the demo, I am sure confusion results. It looks like an RTS but plays like a turn-based. The requirment to "know the units" is very high if you don't want to get creamed. Does this mean that CM is a "Grog game in Twitch clothing"...yes and no. The main aim, I belive was to give the niche wargaming community the eye candy and real immersive terrain we have been aching for but I think it unintentionally does attract people from the outside because of it. The beauty is that we are going to get converts as the technology gets better. and converts means more money for he development of better games and a broadening of the community. So rather than blindly "taking offence" and "personalizing" the young lads comments. Try and see where he is trying to go with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 This entire thing is the biggest non-issue I've ever seen on the board. Anyone who thinks that playing Combat Mission makes them better, smarter or more interesting than another type of gamer is a deeply confused idiot who needs a hug or a role model or something. The same goes for being on this board. Having the luck to find out about CM early on and signing up on this BBS doesn't make your opinions any more valuable and doesn't enhance your value as a person. And I'd like to see a lot fewer posts that begin "Well, none of you newbies will remember.." or "We veterans on the board are sick of hearing about x." There are a very very few people who behave that way, and I say to them: Feh. If your own self esteem is only shored up by putting down people who haven't played CM as long as you have and have questions about the game, well then you stink. Cordially, Terence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted March 16, 2001 Author Share Posted March 16, 2001 Look guys! I did NOT mean to start a flame war. I did NOT even stereo-type FPS gamers. All I did was a hear a one-on-one account on how one kid looked at CM and it gave me insight on how people like Gunny Bunny look at CM. Not all FPS gamers, but those that are confused at CM's mission (pardon the pun). GEEZ you people amaze me sometimes on how you get all worked up over nothing. Like I said above, not all FPS gamers but people like Gunny Bunny who bitch and complain about why CM isn't this or that or doesn't have better graphics because it is a 3D game. Hell we've all heard these arguements before. This thread was NOT intended to bash anybody, but to just bring in another look at how some people look at wargames in general. In fact, my little "test subject" didn't even know what a wargame/strategy game was. He was so inticed with Link that he wasn't aware of any other game genres. But I didn't chastize him for it. deanco-, I can't believe your response. MantaRay, for once you are correct. I *do* have the "divine truth" about everything. OK, so my "summary" paragraph in the first post wan't worded quite right and leaned a little towards being stereo-typical, but that wasn't my intention. So I left out the word, "some" (FPS fans), so sue me. At least Priest got the true meaning of this thread. Thanks for seeing through the blurred vision of the other posters. ------------------ For your dream car click here. For a Close Encounter click here. Hey look! I can see my house! And for all you Hamster Lovers out there, check this out! Kitty, this one's for you! [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 03-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted March 16, 2001 Share Posted March 16, 2001 All rise! Hear yee, hear yee, the BTS Forum Court is now in session, Judge Mental presiding. The court will now hear arguments in the civil case of "The Rabble versus Maximus". Bench warrant summons have been issued for witnesses Gunny Bunny, and Priest, for the defense, and Deanco, and MantaRay for the plantiffs. The plantiffs may call their first witness. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 03-16-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts