Starting to think off changing Allied tactics

[bluemx]

After playing for a bit - I am starting to think of a complete change in tactics.

Lets say that all things being equal having two equally skilled commanders in the field facing eachother with same points in a meeting engagement. My money would be on the germans.

Always a die hard for the underdogs i simply enjoy the stress and challenege of commanding allies.

I am starting to think of NOT putting my money into allied armor much anymore. With the most money going into infantry and HVY artillery and say 81mm mortors and AT guns.

At tops a few light tanks stuarts or something else light with some sextons or priests.

The main goal or tactic is to defeat enemy infantry support of armor. If run into hvy german tanks - smoke em and hide. When smoke lifts drop the hvy Art and hope for some damage.

It not a winning tactical plan but at least it may be a survival tactic.

Time and time again I know we have all felt the frustration of out allied tanks getting munched even with good usage. Tanks weren't meant to fight the type of battle we are fighting - They where suppose to exploit a breakthrough and do ends runs into enemies rear. Or a least operate in large groups.

It wasn't uncommon towards end off war for usa troops to have a sherman in support for each PLATOON. But with the randomness and fastness of a real battle field that works. When on a small battle say a 1,000 point battle. Where you can face a king tiger,88mm,20mm flak gun,75mm inf gun, company of smgs supported with panzerfaust and hvy machine guns. Might as well leave shermans back up road no sense to engage em.

I would rather buy say two 17pounders AT guns,or say 3 76mm at guns and two 81mm mortors and some hvy art supported with verteren company inf. Then buy clay pigeons for german tiger tank to fire at.

Taking on germans head to head is for the most part a losing fight. Stealth hiding,

taking up defense positions and defending center of woods rather then tree line so as to not expose myself to enemy surpresive fire.

I think I am going to save the tank charges for the russians.

From a vet of ww2

"When your first new into combat you think you are invincable, that you could not die.

Bullets would simply bounce off my chest,I am to well trained,to fit, to smart and clever,to good looking in my uniform,to young with my whole life a head of me.

After your 1st battle you start to realize dam I could get killed and i better not take so mnay chances. I need to dig a better fox hole and use cover more and not fire so far away as to give up my postion.

Another qoute from ww2 vet:

"He use to be a pitcher for college baseball team and had a great arm - he wiped that grenade - it didn't have any arch at all straight line and hit the running german in head and exploxed"

[109 Gustav]

Don't think that just because you play as Germans, you can charge headlong into masses of Allied tanks and watch their shells bounce off your frontal armor. You're likley to find yourself outflanked, with shermans shooting at your side armor. The 75mm sherman can kill any tank in the game, you just have to give it a chance to do this. Moving it directly in front of German uber-armor isn't the way to do this.

I'd say more, but I gotta run to class.

By the way, I'm looking for a good PBEM, so if you want to put your uberarmor against my 57mm ATs and low end sherms, send me a file.

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The Last Defense- Mods, Scenarios, Classic threads, and more!

Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

[North Star]

From my experience, I would not lump the Allies together. The Brits with the 17 lbr and the thickly armored Churchill seem to have a much easier time dealing with axis than do the Americans. In games I've played, axis vs. allied win-loss records are about equal. But, breaking it down, the Brits do much better than 50/50 and the Americans do a lot worse. Maybe the challenges of playing the US are too much for most players.

Before the Pershing is available, of course nothing beats a King head on. You can beat a KT if playing someone who ignores keeping the rest of the force balanced or that has bad tactics. But against a good player who keeps the King back and gives it adequate protection, the allies almost have to play for a tie or employ some very risky strategies to overcome this handicap.

I tend to agree with Bluemx's strategy. Against a good player, 3 Sherman 75's have very little chance of surviving, so why buy them? This is a "Rock, paper, scissors" game, and go opposite to your opponents strategy. Only downfall is that people usually do not declare their strategy before the game so the alternative allied force mix may be outmatched against better balanced axis selection.

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"Act after having made assessments. The one who first knows the measures of far and near wins - this the rule of armed struggle." Sun Tzu - The Art of War

[109 Gustav]

As the Americans, speed is your friend, not armor. Dash from cover to cover, and try to work your way in to knife fighting range where your fast turret allows you to get the first shot.

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The Last Defense- Mods, Scenarios, Classic threads, and more!

Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

[Wolfcub]

well iv been playing the demo alot and on the assault battle ,and because the german panther [played by computer] moved it left part of its flank exposedand as such 1 of my sherman 75 yanks exploited that and took it out first shot ,just goes to show german armour aint invincable

[109 Gustav]

Exactly. The panther is by no means invincible. It's side armor can be penetrated by 37mm guns and up. The trick is just to play well enough to get your guns in a position to shoot at the flanks.

Psst- buy the full game. Best investment in terms of recreation time you'll ever spend.

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The Last Defense- Mods, Scenarios, Classic threads, and more!

Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

[Abbott]

Finished one today, a QB vs. a competent human opponent. I played Allies and had a Hellcat, a Sherman 75 and two M8 AC’s as my armored picks. The Germans fielded a Panther, Puma and 234/1 as theirs. The map had two large patches of tall pines near two of the victory locations and scattered trees near the third. One M8 was lost on turn 2 to the Panther while poking its nose out around some woods the second to a ‘shreck team late in the game. Bazooka team nailed the Puma. Neither the Hellcat nor Sherman fired a shot in the 20-turn battle.

Ended with a tactical Allied victory, infantry carried the entire battle with 200 rounds of smoke fired by 81's.

[Col Deadmarsh]

Alright! Now we're getting somewhere! This is the kinda stuff I was posting about before and no one had anything to say on it until now. Go figure.

Let's face it, when you're playing as the Allies, most of your tanks have multiple roles. For instance, the Sherman 76. It's a tank killer with the large gun and an infantry support vehicle with the 3 mg's.

Sounds like a great thing to have. The only problem is, you have to pay for each of those strengths. Now, having a tank that can play two roles can be very effective and practical but if you lose that tank, you have in effect, lost 1 1/2 tanks when it comes to the money you spent.

So, taking your dual-role Sherman and matching it up with a German tank destroyer that costs less because it only has one role, is not an efficient way of fighting. Therefore, the Allied player must think of these dual-role tanks as infantry killers first, and tank destroyers second. Second meaning, only if they have to.

Let's look at the Allies' strengths compared to the Germans:

1)Arty

2)Tank Turret Speed

3)3 MG's on Infantry Assaulting Tanks

4)50 Caliber MG Teams and Half-Tracks

Using these strengths as the Allies is the key to your success with them. What I see above is a recipe for winning.

The top two have been discussed before so let's ignore those and move on to 3 and 4:

As the Allies you are given the option of purchasing tanks that have 3 mg's on it which will support your infantry. The Germans don't have this on their tanks. This makes the Allies that much stronger when it comes to killing infantry.

They also have 50 cal at their disposal. Make sure you purchase some when shopping whether it be a team of men or a halftrack to help with suppression and cleaning up infantry.

So, looking at these two points, it seems that the Allies have an advantage when it comes to dealing with enemy infantry. Why not use this advantage? If you are successful in defeating his infantry, you will make the German tanks blind. If your opponent is put in this position, he will be at a disadvantage and open to attacks from his side where he has gaping holes in his defense.

Yes, as the Allies you will most likely have a greater challenge in front of you but the battle will not necessarily be harder to win. You simply must do a little more thinking, that's all.

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Youth is wasted on the young.

[Guest wwb_99]

Well, I would say that the German HTs are much more combat worthy than the allied HTs, because they actually do have enough sloped armor to stop MMG rounds. But still, the allies have some strenghts:

1) Those goddamn light mortars. Gives every platoon nearly instantaneous, on call smoke and HE support.

2) Arty, Arty, Arty. Big guns are your friends.

3) 37mm/2 pdr armed light AFVs. They can deal with most axis armor from close range and various angles, and they are quite cheap to boot.

4) US Rifle 45 squads. 2 BARs, 9 Semi-auto rifles. Best all-purpose infantry in the game, without counting the organic heavy weapons support.

WWB

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Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus.

[Tiger]

Wasn't the .50 cal flex mg on an allied sherman was for anti-air defence. Not really needed I know but to use in the ground role requires the crew member to be outside the tank on the rear deck. There's no way to fire at level ground targets from inside the cupola with this gun. I'll post a pic of this.

Oh and I just had another tiger tank get taken out by a greyhound through a front turrent penetration....you allied players are so full of it

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

The .50cal on the Allied tanks can only be used when it is unbuttoned and then it risks to get shocked. But it can fire the M2, listen, the sound indicates the kind of MG in use. Button it up, the sound changes to the 7.62 MG.

Other remarks on points in this thread:

I found Allied halftracks easier to use because the Germans do not have the HT killer that the .50cal is. Also the MG(s) (additonal .50cal on the A1) and the ammo load of the allied models is better.

Overall, I'd say the .50cal is one of the greatest advantages the allies have, be it in a team or on vehicles. VT arty can be nice if you can effort it.

I found the 2 inch mortar quite useless, even for smoke. Test it, the smoke cloud is too small and does not completely block sight except for very narrow paths.

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by bluemx:

The main goal or tactic is to defeat enemy infantry support of armor. If run into hvy german tanks - smoke em and hide. When smoke lifts drop the hvy Art and hope for some damage.

It not a winning tactical plan but at least it may be a survival tactic.

Not only is it a survival tactic, but, according to what I've read recently, a historical tactic (as applied by the US).

Cheers

Olle

[Warmaker]

As a fervent Axis player, let me add that I absolutely hate those blasted .50 Cals. Good penetration for a MG and brings problems to hiding in buildings, in particular the light ones. The .50's also can be problematic to the relatively light skinned SPWs. However, I still prefer German Halftracks over Allied ones due to the varieties available.

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

What you said about not necessarily engaging enemy tanks is important.

Do not always think "tank battle first" and then -if its still not futile- infantry combat.

Use your tank to hit the enemy infantry, avoid the enemy tank. Requires that some of your units can see the tank, of course.

If your tank is knocked out, not at the start of the game, but at the end with just a few turns left and with all its HE and MG rounds already fired at the infantry, your opponent is not going to go anywhere anymore.

If the enemy has tanks and you have not, you will loose. But only early in the game. If the enemy tanks spent a major part of the game hunting your tanks instead of doing useful things the damage it can do in the remaining turns is greatly reduced. Your tanks are costly and are worth much. But only in the start of the game and when full of ammunition. In the last turn, the value of every single unit approaches zero.

So if your tanks are going to die anyway, make them die without the costly ammunition in it and without many hurting turns left.

Shoot everything you have at soft targets and then with only AT rounds left, dance around the enemy tanks, keep them from engaging your infantry. Even a Tiger cannot ignore a 75mm Sherman if it is behind him. That won't work long, but is a great deal better than what happens in initial tank battles.

Of course, your enemy may try the same. Or rather not, if we are talking fighting against superiour tanks here.

If you have Shermans and he has Panthers, he has the better tanks. An initial tank battle has the chances on his side.

But if both are going against soft targets insetad of each other, the value of the Panther is suddenly less than that of the Sherman. A 75mm Sherman has a blast value of 39, has about 55 HE rounds, has a .50cal MG if you can keep it open, two other MGs usable when closed, around 200 rounds of MG ammunition and a fast turret, useful to shoot at infantry. A Panther has inferiour MGs, only one to be used when closed, a blast value of 34, around 40 HE rounds, less smoke and a slow turret.

When the tanks are lost due to infantry AT teams, the Panther owner's loss is still greater since sooner or later the game would turn tank'y again. The chance of a bazooka knocking out a Panther is better than a Schreck's chance against the Sherman if you keep in mind that the Panther's slow turrent does not allow it to use its MG against antitank teams efficienty if it is button'ed up. A buttoned Sherman still has two MGs, one in the fast turret.

So, in practice, if one player has clearly better tanks, he does not have this tactical choice. He has to go tank hunting first.

Other points of Shermans vs. Panthers: the Panther is known to be "the" fast tank. Fine, but the Sherman is still a little faster, also more HP/ton. The Sherman has the Gyrostabilizer. Faster turret, of course. Smaller Silhouette. So keep things going, the faster everyone is running around, the better the Sherman's chances. Take "dancing" from above literally. If both break out of bushes, at comparable angles and the Sherman is spotted later, moving faster and shoots from its stabilized gun, then the Sherman gains the extra time it needs to go at the Panther's flanks. And if not, you don't loose much if it has done its duty.

[Pvt.Tom]

Martin,

Great post, very informative, I will have to try this out.

[Dan Weaver]

M-18 Hellcats save my hash time and time again. Why? Their fast turret and faster ground speed means that they can outmaneuver the Germans every time, and their low, low price means that you can get enough of them to launch serious ambushes.

But I've loved the Hellcat ever since the days of the demo.

[von Lucke]

Despite my monicker, I seem to end up playing the Allies in most of my QB's.

Don't under-estimate what the Allies can bring to the party: 17lbr can take out any vehicle the Germans can field. 3in mortar (both on- and off-board) packs twice the punch and twice the ammo of the 81mm. The Hellcat has already been mentioned. And lest we forget the lowly Sherman, it is the best anti-infantry tank you can buy --- especially the 105mm version.

I played a 2000 pt QB not too long ago (as the Americans), and had all my armor wacked in less than 10 turns --- I still managed to fight to a draw with nothing more than rifle grenades and a pair of bazookas. You'd be suprised just how vulnerable a Panther is from the side.

[lucero1148]

This is quite a good thread.

In 2 current ladder matches where I'm playing as US force in one and Polish Airborne in another I've had good success in defeating the Axis armor.

In the 1st fight QB my opponent had 3 Panther's, 2 MK IV's and 2 Hummel's -vs- 2 Churchills w/75's, 2 M-18's, 2-M8 HMC's and a wasp with 155 and 4.2 mortar artillery. We have both lost most of our armor and both down to 1-Hummel and 1 Churchill. The 3 Panther's I took out with 4.2 mortar fire, bazooka and by a M-18. Artillery has done wonders in neutralizing his infantry units, mostly smg platoons. AS it stands the balance is still up in the air but his forces are being attrited faster than mines even with his infantry in buildings. If ou can afford the artillery get it to keep your enemy off balance and pulverize him.

The 2nd ME battle my Polish Airborne are against a strong inf. force in a village with hvy tree coverage. I sent a significant force to the outskirts of the village to sit in the woods and snipe at his troops occupying the VL's. Eventually he brings out his armor force of 1-Panther, 1-Hetzer a Stug III, and 2 halftracks with 75mm inf. guns. My force (that he has seen so far) consists of 2 companies of airborne inf., 2 Daimler scout cars,2-M8 HMC's, and one M-24. My armor is down to Daimler, a M8-HMC after 12 turns but in turn he is also down to 1-Halftrack with inf gun and a Stug III with 2 mg halftracks. HIs armor losses were taken out by Piat's and A Daimler. HIs infantry lured out of the buildings (in his desire to kill my troops)into the woods are now getting pounded by my mortar fire from an 81 FO and I've got another fresh company of para's moving in on his flank along with 2 M-18's I hid way in the back as reserves. The game isn't won yet but with his armor currently outflanked and his infantry under fire it's only a matter of time before I can tie the noose around his force.

Point is Allied forces can win but tactics and proper use of firepower at the right time can defeat a seemingly superior German force of smg companies and Panther's. Buying heavy tanks isn't necessarily a ticket to win (even a Churchill).

Best

Patrick

[lucero1148]

This is quite a good thread.

In 2 current ladder matches where I'm playing as US force in one and Polish Airborne in another I've had good success in defeating the Axis armor.

In the 1st fight QB my opponent had 3 Panther's, 2 MK IV's and 2 Hummel's -vs- 2 Churchills w/75's, 2 M-18's, 2-M8 HMC's and a wasp with 155 and 4.2 mortar artillery. We have both lost most of our armor and both down to 1-Hummel and 1 Churchill. The 3 Panther's I took out with 4.2 mortar fire, bazooka and by a M-18. Artillery has done wonders in neutralizing his infantry units, mostly smg platoons. AS it stands the balance is still up in the air but his forces are being attrited faster than mines even with his infantry in buildings. If ou can afford the artillery get it to keep your enemy off balance and pulverize him.

The 2nd ME battle my Polish Airborne are against a strong inf. force in a village with hvy tree coverage. I sent a significant force to the outskirts of the village to sit in the woods and snipe at his troops occupying the VL's. Eventually he brings out his armor force of 1-Panther, 1-Hetzer a Stug III, and 2 halftracks with 75mm inf. guns. My force (that he has seen so far) consists of 2 companies of airborne inf., 2 Daimler scout cars,2-M8 HMC's, and one M-24. My armor is down to Daimler, a M8-HMC after 12 turns but in turn he is also down to 1-Halftrack with inf gun and a Stug III with 2 mg halftracks. HIs armor losses were taken out by Piat's and A Daimler. HIs infantry lured out of the buildings (in his desire to kill my troops)into the woods are now getting pounded by my mortar fire from an 81 FO and I've got another fresh company of para's moving in on his flank along with 2 M-18's I hid way in the back as reserves. The game isn't won yet but with his armor currently outflanked and his infantry under fire it's only a matter of time before I can tie the noose around his force.

Point is Allied forces can win but tactics and proper use of firepower at the right time can defeat a seemingly superior German force of smg companies and Panther's. Buying heavy tanks isn't necessarily a ticket to win (even a Churchill).

Best

Patrick

[lucero1148]

sorry double post by accident!

Patrick

[Gen-x87]

I am the king of losing my armor early But what I have learned so far in the week since I picked this game back up. This is for the germans.

1. In a small battle 1000 point Hetzer can not be beat for durability\firepower. Keep the nose pointed to anything with a turret and I have yet to see it taken out. Shermans just ricochet.

2. On map cluster of 4 Mortars with the company commander spotting while the mortars are behind a hill is a killer. Time on target is about 5 seconds. Drops about 30 rounds a min on the target. Good for 3 turns.

3. Use the german armor close with infantry. Just move forward through the brush\trees with this combo and the americans will have a hard time stopping it.

I have changed my tactics about 3 times in the last 10 days hehe. More and more going to the arty side of things and dropping 1 more Armor unit. If you can just disrupt panic\kill the other troops it is half the battle. Let your Armor smack the other armor and you may just win.

As for the americans. Thier arty is killer.

I played a game the other night where I lost. I mortared the hell out of his troops in the tree line causing about 35 casualties. He then mortared the hell out of a platoon and 2 HMG crews. About wiped them all out.

US has a deadly arty capability is all I can say. Not sure how good it is against armor or gun emplacements. Last night the enemy dropped about 150 rounds on a 75 inf gun of mine and didnt do anything but waste rounds, the other night they had to of dropped 200 rounds on a Hetzer that was on a hill while at the same time shooting it up with 1 shermans and 2 Stuarts. It was never taken out. But against Inf, American Arty kills real bad.

Gen

[BloodyBucket]

Great thread. Hope my regular opponent does not see it.

I admit to a tendency to go tank hunting at the outset, although I try to do it with my infantry AT teams if possible.

Is there anything in life as sweet as the victory of an infantry squad armed with rifle grenades or a demo charge/gammon grenade over those damn big iron German monstrosities? Granted, the rarity of the event is a key to the immense satisfaction...

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"Roll on"

[Warmaker]

U.S. artillery is quite effective against soft targets (infantry/trucks/SPWs). VT fused arty is even more deadly. From the receiving end of it though, don't expect it to destroy medium-heavy armor. With hvy.calibers of arty, maybe, but hope for immobilization at best. If in doubt, arty it out. Level the objective if you feel it necessary. Gotta watch for those sneaky German players.

As far as engaging Panzers the PzKpfwIV can easily be taken out(outdated by time of CMBO's timeframe). Even in a hulldown position I feel it is quite vulnerable. 50mm of frontal turret armor to me felt like wearing a paper bag as a bulletproof vest. Just watch for the 75mm gun though which can still zip through any Allied tank. Want your soda cans to get one way tickets to death? Go head to head with a Panther/Tiger I or II. Instead go for flank shots with the Panthers. As for the Tigers, well that's harder since they have thick side armor too. The Tiger IE has 100mm on the sides. A dash for a short ranged shot to the side/rear is your best bet, but that's easier said than done.

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by Warmaker:

U.S. artillery is quite effective against soft targets (infantry/trucks/SPWs). VT fused arty is even more deadly. From the receiving end of it though, don't expect it to destroy medium-heavy armor. With hvy.calibers of arty, maybe, but hope for immobilization at best. If in doubt, arty it out. Level the objective if you feel it necessary. Gotta watch for those sneaky German players.

The allied artillery is good for eliminating medium or heavy armor - you just have to use it for a long enough period of time. Usually, I pound armor columns with artillery, hoping for immobilization or gun damage. Once you get an immobilization, continue to pound the target with artillery - often the defending tank crew panics and abandons the vehicle.

I agree that allied artillery is deadly to germans. I LOVE pounding German positions (particularly those in tree lines, forests, pine trees, etc.) with VT artillery. What doesn't die usually runs.

MrSpkr

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But we're saying goodbye to them all

We're Harry's police force on call!

So put back your pack on

The next stop is Saigon

Don't bless the few bless 'em all!

[Mannheim Tanker]

Originally posted by BloodyBucket:

Is there anything in life as sweet as the victory of an infantry squad armed with rifle grenades or a demo charge/gammon grenade over those damn big iron German monstrosities?

Yes; an M-8 popping a Panther or KT

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Andreas himself will attest that my massive ego and foolhardy belief in my own greatness would never allow for me to be anyone's worshipper - Hamsters