scooleen Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 What is the frequency of bogging down versus the weight of a vehicle? It seems that whenever I use a King Tiger in a snowy condition, it inevitably gets "bogged down". There were no roads to put it on in this scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 Yup sounds about right to me! PeterNZ ------------------ "I can be quite pleasant, you know" - Andreas "WHERE'S THE MOAT?!" - Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by scooleen: What is the frequency of bogging down versus the weight of a vehicle? It seems that whenever I use a King Tiger in a snowy condition, it inevitably gets "bogged down". There were no roads to put it on in this scenario.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> & just think it actualy had better flotation then the Sherman . Regards, John Waters ------------------ "We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field". Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikey D Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 I have the same problem with the old narrow-track Shermans. I've lost count of the number of times one of my narrow-track Shermans has followed a HVSS wide-track Sherman into a muddy field and only one emerges at the other end. Those are just the tactical consideration that need to be planned for in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lassner.1 Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 Always keep your Tigers (I and II) and other heavy armor on the road unless you have dry/damp ground conditions. Jagdtigers will not last even one move off-road in snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 If it is snow or damp the German very heavies, and some of the British and US tanks (those with improved armor and weapons that did not include grousers / improved tracks) will bog very quickly, while even the lightest and most nimble tanks (ie M18, Lynx) will bog if you hotrod them up and down hills. Lots of people love the very heavies but it is the risk you have using them. From time to time in list play you will get a challenge from someone who plays Germans only no snow or damp conditions because of this, even though bogging really effects allies just as much as axis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooleen Posted January 8, 2001 Author Share Posted January 8, 2001 Wow, thanks for your insights into these considerations. I guess using tanks as fixed turret/emplacements is a valid strat? Or would that be considered gamey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 There is even the option to have your Tanks "Dig In" on the setup turn, thus becoming a gun emplacement/turret type thing... so I would vote NOT GAMEY. I'm not sure if you ALWAYS have the option to dig in tanks, or only in certain scenarios... It's in the rulebook somewhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...even though bogging really effects allies just as much as axis.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually from my experience it affects the Allies(US) much, much more as some of their AFVs have atrocious ground pressure, for example the Sherman76. When I'm playing the German side I count it as an advantage when ground conditions are bad as generally the German AFVs have good flotation. Of course it isn't as much an issue if you're picking your own force in a QB since you can easily avoid those AFVs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Oberst Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by scooleen: What is the frequency of bogging down versus the weight of a vehicle? It seems that whenever I use a King Tiger in a snowy condition, it inevitably gets "bogged down". There were no roads to put it on in this scenario.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Quick check of some select data shows: <table border=1 cellspacing=2 cellpadding=2> <tr><td>Vehicle</td><td>Ground Pressure</td></tr> <tr><td>M4A3(76)W</td><td>15.1 psi</td></tr> <tr><td>Pz VIb</td><td>14.1 psi</td></tr> <tr><td>Sherman Jumbo</td><td>14.1 psi</td></tr> <tr><td>Pz VI</td><td>13.8 psi</td></tr> <tr><td>M4</td><td>13.6 psi</td></tr> <tr><td>Pz VG</td><td>12.5 psi</td></tr> <tr><td>Pz IVG</td><td>12.1 psi</td></tr> <tr><td>M4A3(76)W + HVSS</td><td>11.8 psi</td></tr> </table> ------------------ To the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee... [This message has been edited by Herr Oberst (edited 01-08-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aposotol Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Herr Oberst: Quick check of some select data shows: <table border=1 cellspacing=2 cellpadding=2> <tr><td>Vehicle</td><td>Ground Pressure</td></tr> <tr><td>M4A3(76)W</td><td>15.1 psi</td></tr> <tr><td>Pz VIb</td><td>14.1 psi</td></tr> <tr><td>Sherman Jumbo</td><td>14.1 psi</td></tr> <tr><td>Pz VI</td><td>13.8 psi</td></tr> <tr><td>M4</td><td>13.6 psi</td></tr> <tr><td>Pz VG</td><td>12.5 psi</td></tr> <tr><td>Pz IVG</td><td>12.1 psi</td></tr> <tr><td>M4A3(76)W + HVSS</td><td>11.8 psi</td></tr> </table> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> To this you must add the total gross weight of the tank. I have been doing some test and when the tank is more of 37tn or has a psi superior to 13, the chance of boggin is greater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 Yeah, there's always problems using the heavy armor in snow/mud conditions. But one tank that I've NEVER had any problems in bogging down in any weather is the Panther series. Awesome all around tank. Sure it's heavier than the lighter Sherman variants but it's got the traits to make it better all around. ------------------ "Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mikey D Posted January 8, 2001 Share Posted January 8, 2001 I've never had a bogging problem with a HVSS Sherman either, if memory serves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Panther Ausf. G Ground pressure was 0.75 kg/cm2 Tiger Ausf.E GP was 0.74 kg/cm2 Tiger Ausf.B GP was 0.78 kg/cm2 M4 Sherman GP was 1.1 kg/cm2 M4A3 76mm (HVSS) GP was 0.77 kg/cm2 Sherman VC GP was 0.96 kg/cm2 T-34-76 GP was 0.64 kg/cm2 T-34-85 GP was 0.87 kg/cm2 IS-2 GP was 0.82 KG/cm2 Their are documented cases of Tiger Ausf B's crossing snowy & muddy terrain where Shermans mired when attempting to follow etc. To attempt to rectify this the US used track extenders which improved the Shermans GP but not to the German levels, the HVSS was the closest they got to evening the GP problem. The Panther & Tiger's had better flotation then the US & UK tanks. Regards, John Waters ------------------ "We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field". Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Umm.. this is interesting. I wonder how much of the German's ability to cross bad terrain was due to the experience of the drivers though? I go off roading with some friends now and again. Most are using the same equipment (old jeeps), but there are some drivers that just know how to drive and cross rough terrain. just my .02 Lorak ------------------ "Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking."--William Butler Yeats Cesspool Combatmissionclub Lorak's FTX and for Kitty's sake =^..^= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 I'd say most of the German advantage in bad terrain was learned the hard way in Russia. In 1941 there were exactly three paved e-w highways in Russia, and few roads between them. Toss in snowmelt and spring rains and which turned the entire country into a quagmire. Not to mention snow. The later German tanks (i.e. Panther & Tiger) were designed to handle the rigors of war in Russia, specifically the often horrible ground conditions. So they have enormous tracks, especially the Panther. WWB ------------------ Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say, Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Lorak wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I wonder how much of the German's ability to cross bad terrain was due to the experience of the drivers though?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't think driver experience has anything to do with the chance of bogging now, but it will if it doesn't already. The more experienced, theless chance of getting bogged down in the first place. The more experienced, the greater the chance of getting out of a mess instead of being immobilized. BTW, my M29C Weasel has a ground pressure rating of 1.68 PSI fully loaded. I tore through roughly 5 feet of loosely packed snow one time. Although the running gear was almost completely burried in snow, she backed right out without a problem. Now my snowmobile... totally different story. More like a Jagdtiger Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Another note about poor snow performance... I have never read anything about this specifically, but from first hand experience I am sure this is at least partly on the mark... Below freezing, there is a problem with steel on steel running gear. Not only does rubber on steel, or even better rubber on rubber, make for a better ride across country and roads (all things being equal), but it also is critical for the prevention of ice buildup. Military vehicles designed for pure snow use have rubber on rubber contact. My M29C has it for sure. Last year one of the rubber bands that covers the the drive wheel came loose and fell off (split wheel, inside rubber missing). This now leaves steel (wheel) on rubber (running band on track) contact. I can tell you for sure that this screws things up after time in the right weather conditions. Ice builds up and is compressed onto the wheel by the pressure of the track. It does so in a non-uniform way. This causes loud thumping, but worse... it causes the track to slip. This in turn can cause damage to the track and, in a serious case, can cause the track to be thrown. So I can see where this could be a problem for vehicles operating in prolonged snow conditions, without crew attention to the running gear (i.e. knocking off the ice every so often). It could be that it was even a bigger problem for the King Tiger based vehicles since they had no rubber on their road wheels. This is just speculation, but there is a reason for rubber on rubber contact for snow travel. And with all the thumping and jumping of my right track, I can assure you the design is not misplaced Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lassner.1: Always keep your Tigers (I and II) and other heavy armor on the road unless you have dry/damp ground conditions. Jagdtigers will not last even one move off-road in snow.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No, in a pbem game I am playing right now with a canned scenario, I have 4 JgTigers off-road in teh snow, and not one of them is bogged down yet (fingers crossed...). Henri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polar Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Those not turreted TKs the germans have are real chancey in wet/snow conditions. I think this is why so many German players ask for Dry/No-Snow conditions... when a Hetzer sticks, it's dead... just stay away from the pointy end. Sounds to me like the scenario that spawned this discussion was designed to exploit this shortcoming. Joe ------------------ "I had no shoes and I cried, then I met a man who had no socks." - Fred Mertz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Those not turreted TKs the germans have are real chancey in wet/snow conditions. I think this is why so many German players ask for Dry/No-Snow conditions<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Which ones? I wonder if some people have the same game as me. Hetzer - 11.3 psi JgPzIV - 12.3 psi Nashorn - 11.0 psi StugIV - 11.5 psi MarderIII - 9.8 psi JgPanther - 12.6 psi Before the Hetzer ever 'sticks' and is 'dead', the bulk of the Allied tanks would never have gotten off the start line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 I don't know if CM models this, but the Heltzer and the Jpz IV both suffered from poor balance, they were very front heavy. Which can make bogging much easier. WWB ------------------ Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say, Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 Lorak wrote: I wonder how much of the German's ability to cross bad terrain was due to the experience of the drivers though? During the aftermath of Portinhoikka counter attack on 26 June 1944 Finns found three intact T-34-85s that had bogged in wet terrain (I think it was a swampy field or something like that). The tanks were abandoned and could be started. Several tank drivers were sent there but they couldn't get the T-34s move at all. They tried for some time, maybe an hour or so, before they decided that they needed some heavy towing equipment. Just when they were sending for artillery tractors, sergeant Lauri Heino's T-34 drove to the scene. Heino jumped out of the tank, jumped in the first bogged T-34, and drove it out of the bog. With his first try. Then he got the rest two tanks out, both with one try. That's what experience does. (He had been driving a T-34 since October 1941 when he had fixed an immobilized one near the Svir power plant.) - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooleen Posted January 9, 2001 Author Share Posted January 9, 2001 The scenario that spawned this discussion was actually just a test. I created a large farm map with snow, and hills. On one end I placed 10 arty spotters, a king tiger, three mg pillboxes, a quad 20mm, a single 20, and a howitzer. On the opposing allied side I placed mostly infantry, in the heavy range. Something like 1000 infantry, machine guns, mortars. The terrain had only sparse cover, some buildings etc... I was testing the effectiveness of diff. arty types. After testing I played as the axis, and unloaded everything at once, after two-three minutes there wasnt much of a force left. Now I am playing as the allies, and it is quite fun to try to take this crest. The scenario is thus: The axis hold this crest with alot of arty support, some mg's some flak etc... the allies are attacking with a massive infantry push. So far I have destroyed one flank of the axis, but my casualties are atrocious. It is alot of fun, completely un-historical, but fun nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 9, 2001 Share Posted January 9, 2001 JoePrivate: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Which ones? I wonder if some people have the same game as me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What Polar meant was *if* one of the non-turreted tanks gets stuck, and isn't facing the enemy at the time, it is basically useless. A turreted tank can still at least defend itself, even if its thinner armor is facing the enemy. I had a JpzIV bog down on the backside of a hill on a small map one time. It was facing the map edge when it got stuck trying to move around the little hill. If the enemy ever came over the hill, it was as good as dead no matter what the enemy unit was. On the other hand, I had a Panther bog down on the other side of the hill, also facing a slightly off center way. But this one was able to cause the enemy a lot of problems because it was able to fire MG and HE at various targets all throughout the game. If that had been the JpzIV it wouldn't have been able to do nearly as much damage. wwb_99, no, we do not simulate front heaviness. We probably should do this for CM2 since there are quite a number of these vehicles on both sides. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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