BTS, in CM2, will tanks be able to travel through woods?

[Maximus]

Because there was apparently alot of that going on in the Eastern Front. One sees a lot of footage of T-34s rumbling through forests knocking down trees and such.

So the question is how will this be simulated? Like it is now-through small gaps in the woods tiles or differently?

[Kingfish]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>One sees a lot of footage of T-34s rumbling through forests knocking down trees and such.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably as much as you see tanks going thru walls or houses. Sure, it happened, but what TC is going to risk immobolization in the middle of a battle (especially in the middle of a pine forest, where the trees will both block the turret from traversing and conceal enemy AT teams from the now helpless tank).

I think what you see in those film clips is already modeled with tanks being able to move thru scattered trees.

[Maximus]

Yeah, I keep forgetting that. It's a whole scope thing isn't it.

[David Aitken]

BTS's response to the issue was that tanks could indeed move through woods, but not under battle conditions. It would take too long and be too risky.

[Commissar]

Also keep in the mind that some photos and movies are actually staged for propaganda purposes and do not actually reflect practice.

[Terence]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Commissar:

Also keep in the mind that some photos and movies are actually staged for propaganda purposes and do not actually reflect practice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stuff I've read about the Germans fighting in Russia (Barbarossa and Fighting In Hell come to mind right away) reflected their amazement that the Russian forces could appear suddenly on the edge of trackless forests or deep swamps, and roll into combat but this would be because the Russians had built roads or tracks through the swamps that the Germans had believed impassable.

I don't recall anyone saying that the Russians were able to do this during battles.

In SOME areas, trees are far enough apart that a tank could drive through, but that applies to all tanks in "Scattered Tree" terrain.

[JMcGuire]

Has there been any discussion of whether Sov tanks will manuver better on snow & ice? I didn't feel like waiting for a search, which is why I didn't post a new thread -- I figured anybody interested in this would have probably noted any such discussion.

Historically the Sovs used much wider tracks which significantly reduced the likelihood that they'd bog down or have traction problems.

Heh... thinking about snow and ice, what if your big heavy tank could crack the ice and fall through... I know, probably not a likely "feature", but wouldn't it be cool...

[MikeyD]

About maneuvering in snow & ice, CM does factor in the flotation (ground pressure) of its tracked vehicles already. That's why the HVSS Shermans do so much better in mud and snow than the older types in the game. So if a KV-1 has worse ground pressure than a Pz2 it'll no doubt bog more often. If it has better, it won't.

[Lars]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JMcGuire:

Heh... thinking about snow and ice, what if your big heavy tank could crack the ice and fall through... I know, probably not a likely "feature", but wouldn't it be cool... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have enough trouble with tanks getting bogged and now you have to bring this up.

[Maximus]

All good points fellas.

The points on the Soviet tanks having wider tracks is an excellnt point as I saw something on the History Channel I believe, that spoke of this and how it affected the narrow tracked tanks of the Wehrmacht like the PzII/III/IVs. The Germans had a aweful time with their tanks bogging down in the snow and mud while the wide tracked T-34 series had no problems.

[Tiger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...while the wide tracked T-34 series had no problems.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've pictures of Soviet tanks bogged down: a trio of T-34s, a KV-2 mired up to its hull, a KV-1 mired, a captured T-34 that simply got hung on one side moving through a defile (picture has a soldier with a sledgehammer working on freeing it). While definitely having an advantage to not getting stuck as often, Soviet tanks were certainly not immune, not even the T-34.

I would like to be able to set up tanks withing a woods, such as along the edges, even if they cannot move through it (but can move out).

I'd also like to see dummy tanks purchaseable, anti-tank ditch segments too.

-Tiger

[Klink]

Anti-tank ditch? I would love to see that Tiger.

[von_M]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

BTS's response to the issue was that tanks could indeed move through woods, but not under battle conditions. It would take too long and be too risky.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too risky? What's more risky than going into battle at a disadvantage?

If moving through woods would enable your force of tanks to flank the enemy, wouldn't that be worth the risk?

[von_M]

Hopefully with this post, I'll finally cast away the shackles of Junior Member class status!

von Manstein, Junior Member for over one and a half years.

Guess not.

[ 04-25-2001: Message edited by: von_M ]

[Cafard]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JMcGuire:

Heh... thinking about snow and ice, what if your big heavy tank could crack the ice and fall through... I know, probably not a likely "feature", but wouldn't it be cool... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree this would be cool . I suppose that's why tanks in CM can't move on frozen lakes. However, i often wondered about the effect of artillery strikes (150mm for example) on a frozen lake actually crossed by infantry...

I suppose actually turning areas of ice to areas of water should be a mess to implement, but Shouldn't area radius or damage be increased for such, due to ice breaking and people drowning ?

Sorry if this is a little bit off-topic, but JMcGuire talked about that, so...

--

Cafard.

Newbie CM player and lousy tactician.

[Olle Petersson]

There doesn't need to be any modification to move through woods.

It's just a matter of map design. A regular forest would contain various patches of "scattered trees", "woods" and "tall pines", with some "open", "brush", "rough", "marsh" and "water" in between.

There should be routs passable for vehicles through this areas, using "scattered trees", "open" and "brush".

Cheers

Olle

[Barleyman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JMcGuire:

Heh... thinking about snow and ice, what if your big heavy tank could crack the ice and fall through... I know, probably not a likely "feature", but wouldn't it be cool... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've seen some pics of Finnish T-72 sunk to mud to about halfway of the turret.

Apparently it was late fall and the guys were driving over some frozen fields when the icy crust cracked and ..

No, I don't think that the tank status was going to change from "bogged" by forwarding and reversing a few times

[tss]

Terence wrote:

because the Russians had built roads or tracks through the swamps that the Germans had believed impassable.

One nice example on this happened near Ilomantsi on summer '44. The Soviets started to construct a new supply route through the forest. (The whole area was one big forest, and for the Central Europeans on this thread, big in this context means something like 200 km x 200 km).

Finnish recon planes noticed it and monitored its building. Soviets built a wooden bridge over a wide stream and continued the road some a little way on the other side.

Then, on one day a recon pilot noticed that Soviets had burned the bridge down and no work had been done. The Finnish commanders in the area then decided that Soviets had cancelled their forthcoming attack. The recon planes flew over the road occasionally, and the situation stayed that way.

However, a few weeks after that one infantry recon patrol happened to come to the river. They noticed that the bridge had been built again and was heavily guarded. They also noticed that the road actually continued beyond its "end-point" but it was narrower and concealed by fir trees that were hanging from ropes across it.

The patrol then quite literally run back to their base. The Soviet attack started six hours after they reported the situation.

- Tommi

[Mattias]

Great story Tommi!

I'll just second MikeyD's post regarding the current implementation of ground preassure effect on snow.

I ran a test with all German vehicles racing over a snowy field and it turned out that one of the Marders was, by far, the most agile (read: fastest) German vehicle on snow.

M.