Observing in online games?

[Waxx_IK]

Hey guys. It's been a while since I've been around here. While playing a TCP game with Radar, I was thinking. Why not allow observers in games for CM2? I realize it could pose some problems such as observers telling people where units are, etc etc. One solution would be to only allow observers to talk with other observers. What do you think of the idea?

[Agua]

You know, that really isn't a bad idea. I wouldn't mind folks watching me (even though I get my pants dusted regularly) and I really would enjoy watching other games as well.

[Waxx_IK]

I know. Plus it would open up new possibilities for ladder games and championship games. Instead of just reading an after action report of a championship game, you could actually watch it as it unfolds.

[Dschugaschwili]

Of course, the chat system would have to be redone for this. Of course, BTS can't let an observing player see both sides and chat with both players for obvious reasons (except both players agree).

Restricting each observing player to observe and chat with one player only would be one solution, observing players being able to only chat with other observers would be another.

Dschugaschwili

[Slapdragon]

This may be stretching TCP/IP for Peer to Peer connections, but perhaps someday some bright programmer will produce a server ap that CM can tie into.

[ACTOR]

WAXX!!!!

Good to see you again sir. I am watching a PBEM game currently, both sides sending me their turns. It's great fun to watch, but I would have to agree with Slappy, I don't think it is feasible.

[Chad Harrison]

is that even possible with the way CM is setup? it sure would be nice to watch us little people get smoked, and it would add a great deal to latter games!!!

[Slapdragon]

Sure it is possible. A server ap would just stand in between two machines and pass data to the CM clients, but also pass data to logged viewers. It would not even have to understand the data encoding (thus keeping some bright boy from breaking the game and introducing cheats), just pass it off to the correct people, but not passing the orders data to viewers.

If I were designing the ap it would run on some Unix platform (OSX or Linnux) to allow it the farthest reach, and it would take over one of the upper level ports. It would then use the TCP/IP stack for connections. Most of this is already coded into free Unix aps, so it would take someone who could sew it all together and release it freeware, and someone else with a 24/7 server to host it.

[Subvet]

It would be fun to have this. I'd only want it though if both players had to agree to let people observe. This would open a HUGE security hole. Obviously is you can observe then you can tell the players what you see. Don't forget that we aren't just talking about the in-game chat function. You could be talking to one of the players outside the game in some chat room or ICQ for example. In fact, a player could log on with another computer and see his opponents every move all by himself!

I've found CM players to be the best group of on-line gamers ever. I wouldn't really worry about this stuff too much in regular gaming. I'd probably agree to let people watch. But I'd be very nervous about tourney games being watched. I've seen players that are normally friendly easy going people totally freak out when playing a tourney game. I think the temptation to cheat may be too much for some people.

[Mace]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ACTOR:

I am watching a PBEM game currently, both sides sending me their turns. It's great fun to watch<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, action without the commercials!

Mace

[Holien]

Hi,

Subvet has hit the nail on the head with the security concerns. I had not seen these holes and until that post thought it would be a great idea.

I am a vouyeur and want to see how other people play so I can learn and improve my game.

The problem with people passing information on is a serious one and I guess stops this idea dead.

Anyone got any ideas how the security can be resolved?

The only idea I have is if you can bundle the whole game and view it after the fact.

I know the files are big at the moment and storing all of them is a pain. Is there a way to reduce the file size by just extracting the results and showing those in a continuos stream?

Maybe people can publish a single video file rather than all the seperate game files?

That would be neat as it would be only one download and give you the ability to play the whole game.

H

[Freak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Subvet:

It would be fun to have this. I'd only want it though if both players had to agree to let people observe. This would open a HUGE security hole. Obviously is you can observe then you can tell the players what you see. Don't forget that we aren't just talking about the in-game chat function. You could be talking to one of the players outside the game in some chat room or ICQ for example. In fact, a player could log on with another computer and see his opponents every move all by himself!

I've found CM players to be the best group of on-line gamers ever. I wouldn't really worry about this stuff too much in regular gaming. I'd probably agree to let people watch. But I'd be very nervous about tourney games being watched. I've seen players that are normally friendly easy going people totally freak out when playing a tourney game. I think the temptation to cheat may be too much for some people.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good points Subvet and I agree. But I think there is a way to do it with lessening the security issues as a problem.

Originally posted by Holien

the problem with people passing information on is a serious one and I guess stops this idea dead.

Anyone got any ideas how the se

I think its possible to do but it needs to be implemented. Weather this is in CM2, from my point of veiw is, doubtful. But I believe that this is a real possibility for CMII the rewrite. I think the best place to see an example (from my experience) to see this done well is with Myth II. Myth II set an excellent example on how to implement multiplayer gaming.

First, what differs from Bungie's Myth II multiplayer in regards to BTS's multiplayer is that Bungie's Myth II has a central server. Gamers meet at the central server (acts like a hub) and players see each other and see different games, different parameters different maps all on the screen for each game. Also one can see the set rules for the game and how many people allowed to play and how many people are in the game at that time. To spice it off the creator of the game gives the game a title with a little personal touch like " I am gonna kick your ass!!!" kind of thing.

Now I dont think BTS has to do what Bungie did to have a succesful internet (tcp/ip) multiplayer function, but some of this would be neat and certainly welcome, and it would add an interesting flavor to the community. I also do realize that Bungie is a much bigger company then BTS so I would not expect BTS to be able to do what Bungie did and has done with their interent gaming servers for over the last 4 years. Bungie and Myth I and II are still playable through Bungies Myth serevers and its (still) free. All you need is the game(and internet connection and compuetr). But, with that being said, I don't think it would be fair to ask BTS to implement such a wide (and expensive?) internet multiplayer server for their clients (though this would be nice certainly). I certainly do think it would be too much to ask for, for such a small company. I do not know what it costs bungie to maintain there gaming servers, though I would expect the maintenace of the servers, would be expensive and that would require BTS to add more people to the fold, something I don't think they would want to do.

Ok, so now that I have spilled the guts of Bungies excellent server multiplayer tcp/ip gaming implementation, let me narrow it down to how observers worked and how it could be done in BTS's CM.

In Myth II player A sets up a game. (Lets bypass the idea that their is a central server so this model can be used for CM). So player A sets up a game much like we do now in CM. Player A selects all of the game functions as he does now in CM, adjusting the game, adjusting the map, the time the year, and so forth, then he decides to choose what kind of game so he chooses "tcp/ip" play. Ok, so far everything is done just like in CM. But now, we have the option to either have an observer in game or not. Lets say player A selects observer. We could have an option to have as many as 1-4 observers in game at a time if we want. Player A decides two obsevers are going to be in the game and selects. An alternative to this method would be to have the server (host) have a pregame chat area built into the game when one select tcp/ip game from the game menu.

With the pre game chat, the host acting as the server, we can have observers come at this time and chat along if they wish. (what is important is that the players (both) know who is in the game as observers here)

On security: One idea is to have a password for each observer so that no one not invited can get in, plus have a lock on the number of observers in the game (set to 2 or 3 or 4 or 1). Observers can then (presumebly they know the gamers which is a good thing - trust is key here) leave the game if the wish, but also have the ability to get back in if they lose connection to the game while observeing. The password part is critical because it allows no one other then the invited party into the game. (two seprate passwords could be issued for each observer)

Another aspect of this part of multiplayer funtion is that palyer both players should talk before the game about observers. They must be aware of it and it must be known. We can not have a game where one player knows there is an observer and the other does not. An idea would be that once player A and player B arrive in the game (on the battlefield) the game screen announces that the observers are in the game. This is crucial, becouse this can lead to serious mistrust amongst players in the community and could be used against a player without knowing it. (this would be done by having a player be in an outside chat relaying information to the player about his enemy's postions and force makeup)

Problem: what to do about both players having in game observers and cheating with outside game chat relays like ICQ? Well, this is a very tough one what can I say? One thing that comes to mind is trust. But there is there a better solution? Players may not like this but it could work. The hitch is, there is no minimization. No minimization of CM is allowed. Is it possible?? I am not sure. It is on mac, I believe it can be hard coded that way for mac). If one cannot get out of the game then one cannot use chat apps like ICQ to communicate with observers. Of course this would not work with someone who has two computers or had a telephone.

What can we do?

I believe it comes down to one thing and one thing only between gamers and that is trust.

Regards the Freak.

disclaimer: these are just ideas off the top of my head and are not meant as concrete examples on how to implement any of it. I know nothing of programming except little bits of basic and even that is not extensive.

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Freak ]

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Freak ]

[Waxx_IK]

I agree totally with Freak. There is no person on this board who I wouldn't trust in a game. If cheating does occur, maybe there could be an option for both players to have the ability to kick an observer out of the game?

[Freak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Waxx_IK:

I agree totally with Freak. There is no person on this board who I wouldn't trust in a game. If cheating does occur, maybe there could be an option for both players to have the ability to kick an observer out of the game?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good idea Waxx_IK, I like that idea.

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Freak ]