Flames in the Rain Bug

[Dr. Brian]

I'm playing All or Nothing (this is NOT a spolier) where the ground is mud, and it is raining in the scenario.

Now, how on earth, in this condition, can a flamethrower make a dirt road catch on fire?

This is clearly wrong!

In addition, in rain and mud, how can some brush catch on fire from infantry and arty?

When it's wet like this, about the only thing I can see catching on fire is buildings.

But, to have a DIRT ROAD catch on fire in rain and mud conditions is just way out of whack.

Thanks for anyone's input. How can I forward this to BTSs' attention?

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[Guest ckoharik]

Um, well, this is a toughie. Perhaps the fuel from the flamethrower is what is burning. As for brushes and other foilage becoming engulfed I would say that the arty explosions could theoretically flash heat them to the point of combustion.

[Scipio]

Yep, I noticed it, too. I fire on a light wood with 60mm Mortars, and it catches fire in rain weather.

Well, I guess it's possible that some flames sparkle for a minute, but the rain should put them out very quick. Same in other wet conditions like fog and maybe snow - but I can't remember burning wood in the snow...

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[Mannheim Tanker]

You should read BTS's policy on this forum: No flaming, please.

OK, bad joke. As far as alerting BTS, I'd send a quick email to Matt for a start.

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Andreas himself will attest that my massive ego and foolhardy belief in my own greatness would never allow for me to be anyone's worshipper - Hamsters

[Dr. Brian]

Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker:

You should read BTS's policy on this forum: No flaming, please.

Ba da ... bump. Okay.....

Anyway, the flamethrower that made a dirt road catch on fire, and this dirt road has been burning in the mud and rain for 40 minutes now, is silly...

I'll send the e-mail when I get Matts address.

Thanks again for makeing sure I'm sane here.

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[M Hofbauer]

Chesty,

the answer is: it's all about abstraction. Memorize it. It will be our magic word for the duration of this post

you have a 20x20 terrain tile which in an abstracted way not only shows you a piece of grass, or acre, or road, but also includes (invisible) little ravines, bicycles, signposts, stacks of wood etc., maybe even oil drums.

That is also the reason why every terrain tile, even seemingly blank pavement, has a certain cover value. Since CM cannot model things smaller than 20x20, all the little parkbenches, trashcans etc. are abstracted into an abstract cover value. But of course that abstract cover value is much higher in the field, scattered trees etc. than it is on open pavement.

Same reasoning goes for things like flammability. In CM, all terrain tiles can catch fire. However, the likeliness to do so varies enormously. For wheat etc. it is great, and for pavement it is practically nil.

You have been one of the few who will ever get to see the great natural happening of a pavement tile in CM catching fire, and in wet conditions, at that. This is a very rare occurrence.

I admit that at first it looks stupid to have wet pavement burning. But you see, it is not a bug, but a consequence of the whole abstraction thing.

But then, you can always make your own excuses for this:

- spilled gasoline on the road

-other flammable items on/near the road (invisible on that tile) like haystacks, logs etc.

-depending on flamethrower type, a flamethrower can first soak and then ignite (shoot unignited fuel onto target, soaking it in liquid, then shoot a later volley which is ignited to ignite the whole setup). Needless to say, FT fuel burns everywhere, on every surface, and of course also in rain.

hope that helps...

cheers,

evil Hofbauer

p.s.: If I am wrong anywhere, I am sure BTS will correct it and if I am so wrong about it that I am practically O/T then I'm sure Mad-Mattlock's Padlock will click on my wrists like handcuffs....

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"Me tank is still alive me churchill's crew must be laughing there heads off." (GAZ_NZ)

[JoePrivate]

Don't know about flamethrower fuel, but diesel will ignite wet wood and burn quite nicely in the pouring rain, so CM's abstractions, as M Hofbauer explained, don't seem that far off.

[Dr. Brian]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

the answer is: it's all about abstraction. Memorize it. It will be our magic word for the duration of this post

You mean, if I *think* hard enough, I can make foxholes appear too, and my tanks come back to life.

Your response makes sense, as I tried abstraction originally, but, the scenario is in the rain, and already there are two flames burning. In mud and rain, this should be an even more unliklier occurance.

That's what is tripping me up. It's just not adding up!

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[M Hofbauer]

You mean, if I *think* hard enough, I can make foxholes appear too, and my tanks come back to life.

Exactly! That's the spirit! You need to look closely with your abstraction glasses on and you will see all the little molehills, garden fences, flowerpots, even insects.

Your response makes sense, as I tried abstraction originally, but, the scenario is in the rain, and already there are two flames burning. In mud and rain, this should be an even more unliklier occurance.

hmmm...hmmm...in that case, I'ld be careful if I were you, chances are that if you ever get struck by lightning you will get hit by two lightnings at the same time!

That's what is tripping me up. It's just not adding up!

Yes I admit it's weird. But as long as it is a rare exception, and as long as the water tiles doesn't catch fire, I guess we will have to accept it as part of the game design....

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"Me tank is still alive me churchill's crew must be laughing there heads off." (GAZ_NZ)

[Mr. Clark]

I had a snow tile catch fire from a tank shot (HE) at a German MG unit while playing Elsdorf (I think), so apparently ANYTHING really can catch fire.

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"Fear is for the enemy... Fear and Bullets."

"They didn't want to come... but I told em, by jeepers, it was an order."

[Tiger]

Well I was out hiking once in the mountains and tried to build a fire at a shelter along the trail we stopped at. Tried everything even throwing some stove fuel on it and the damn twigs/dry branches/kindling wouldn't light. So it starts to rain and I throw a mass of twigs and branches on top so it won't get wet and we can try after the rainstorm. This thing blazes up while we're sitting in the shelter while it's still raining. :-\

I imagine flamethrower fuel would've burned better than my camp-stove fuel.

-John

[Guest Madmatt]

There are several active and part time Foirefighters that post here in the forum. I have seen forest fires blazing away in the middle of downpours so it is quite possible but some input from these smoke breathers would be appreciated.

Madmatt

[MadmaN]

paved road in damp conditions. I made this crappy ambush scenario, but no matter how wet it was, the road kept cathing fire and blocked all the other tanks and stuff from moving down the road.

[Pak40]

I think the abstaction thing explains it.

BTW, ever throw an M-80 in water? The wick still burns. I don't understand the physics of it but I've seen it with my own eyes.

[MadmaN]

Originally posted by Pak40:

I think the abstaction thing explains it.

BTW, ever throw an M-80 in water? The wick still burns. I don't understand the physics of it but I've seen it with my own eyes.

the fuse is wax coated.

[Mannheim Tanker]

Originally posted by MadmaN:

the fuse is wax coated.

I understand that, but it still needs oxygen to burn. Where is it getting it from?

[M Hofbauer]

There is oxygene in the wick's components. (There is also oxygene in water but that is not he issue in this case).

To compare: Where does a bomb's explosive charge, enclosed in a massive iron shell, get all the oxygene from?

->It's part of it's explosive element.

[Moriarty]

Flamethrower will cause continued burning in rain/snowy weather until the fuel is burned off or heat/oxygen is diminishes.

If the fuel is strictly flaming gasoline without a gel component, it will continue to burn on wet surfaces as gasoline is lighter than water. If the fuel is a gas/oil or gas/gel mix to prolong burn time, it will continue to burn despite its surroundings until the fuel is spent or it is in too lean of an atmosphere.

As for wicks and such, some materials, when ignited, give off sufficient oxygen to support low-grade combustion ... such as a fuse.

As for burning paved roads, my question would be: paved with what? If it's a tarred road or oil over gravel/dirt to keep down the dust, the combustion is not out of the question. Keep in mind, too, that if you see flames for 5 turns, that's only 5 minutes of burn time.

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"Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change." -- Oddball

"Crap." -- Moriarty

[This message has been edited by Moriarty (edited 03-26-2001).]

[Moriarty]

Flamethrower will cause continued burning in rain/snowy weather until the fuel is burned off or heat/oxygen is diminishes.

If the fuel is strictly flaming gasoline without a gel component, it will continue to burn on wet surfaces as gasoline is lighter than water. If the fuel is a gas/oil or gas/gel mix to prolong burn time, it will continue to burn despite its surroundings until the fuel is spent or it is in too lean of an atmosphere.

As for wicks and such, some materials, when ignited, give off sufficient oxygen to support low-grade combustion ... such as a fuse.

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"Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change." -- Oddball

"Crap." -- Moriarty

[Mannheim Tanker]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

There is oxygene in the wick's components. (There is also oxygene in water but that is not he issue in this case).

To compare: Where does a bomb's explosive charge, enclosed in a massive iron shell, get all the oxygene from?

->It's part of it's explosive element.

Makes sense to me. Thanks.

[MadmaN]

throw a block of styrofoam in a bucket of gas, it melts and makes this sticky gel crap. But im sure the army wouldnt use such a trashy mixture, but its about like what they used i think.

the oxygene might be Ammonium Nitrate.

[This message has been edited by MadmaN (edited 03-26-2001).]

[Bullethead]

Madmatt said:

There are several active and part time Firefighters that post here in the forum. I have seen forest fires blazing away in the middle of downpours so it is quite possible but some input from these smoke breathers would be appreciated.

Speak of the Devil

In Dr. Brian's specific case, the use of a flamethrower should be answer enough. Those things spew out pre-ignited fuel faster than the fuel is burning--otherwise the stream wouldn't reach the target. Squirt enough fuel and it will puddle and burn for some time, even if there's nothing else flammable in the tile. So he should assume that's what happened to him.

As for wet tiles burning, there's no problem with that. Hell, just last January I had to fight a fire in a field so muddy that we got an engine totally immobilized in it. All it takes to burn such a field is 1 match on 1 clump of dry grass, which is exactly what happened then thanks to a stupid kid. This little fire then dries out the surrounding grass, to which the fire spreads, getting bigger in the process. The bigger the fire, the more heat, so the more drying it can do, resulting in more and more and bigger and bigger things in the field igniting. This process takes more time at first than with a dry field, of course, but if there's enough kindling-type stuff available in the initial area, eventually the fire gets big enough that there's no longer any difference. It's big enough to dry out all fuels over a large area outside the fire itself. Then the fire spreads as if the field was dry, and us poor firemen sink up to our knees humping hose to it from our bogged truck.

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-Bullethead

West Feliciana Fire Protection District #1

International Brotherhood of Dragonslayers Local 911

[This message has been edited by Bullethead (edited 03-26-2001).]

[Banshee]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

There is oxygene in the wick's components. (There is also oxygene in water but that is not he issue in this case).

To compare: Where does a bomb's explosive charge, enclosed in a massive iron shell, get all the oxygene from?

->It's part of it's explosive element.

I have a slight pyrotechnic background (was a test tech at an pyrotechnic and explosives plant, I tested mostly the pyrotechnic stuff), the oxygen is derived from the OXIDIZER (makes sense!) which is mixed in with the fuel which you want to explode/burn. Usually when making a pyrotechnic compound you would have 3 things, 1) Fuel 2) Oxidizer 3) Binder, the binder basically sticks the oxidizer to the fuel. Then things go boom!

btw there was a more technical term for "FUEL" which escapes me at the moment. It has been a few years since I did any of that stuff.

p.s. Trivia: What is the difference between an explosive and a pyrotechnic?

Answer: An explosive DETONATES (the shockwave is in front of the flame front) but a pyrotechnic DEFLAGRATES (Shock wave is behind the flame front).

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[StellarRat]

Originally posted by Pak40:

BTW, ever throw an M-80 in water? The wick still burns. I don't understand the physics of it but I've seen it with my own eyes.

The fuse is a hollow core surrounded by a plastic coated thread. The core is loaded with black powder. Black powder is a mixture of Potassium Nitrate (oxidizer), Charcoal aka Carbon (Fuel) and Sulfur (Fuel and Binder). When you light the fuse a chemical reaction begins and the potassium nitrate supplies the carbon with oxygen, therefore no outside oxygen (air) is required for the fuse to keep burning. As long as the black powder is not completely doused by water it will burn without any outside air. Because the fuse is hollow and waterproof on the outside the gas released by the burning black powder prevents water from dousing the reaction (like blowing through a straw.) Once the fuse burns into the M-80 it still explodes because the gas pressure inside the M-80 prevents water from coming into the fuse hole. A regular (small) firecracker can be easily put out by tossing in water because the fuse is not waterproof on the outside and water will douse exposed black powder.

High explosives such as TNT do not depend at all on oxygen, they explode by chemical decomposition. They will detonate anywhere as long as they are not dispersed by whatever environment they are in. Since high explosives are usually organic they can be dispersed by oils and alcohols. This is why bomb squads will often put a suspected bomb in a tank of oil, it causes some organic compounds to disperse and can disable mechanical timing devices such as wrist watches and electrical relays.

Typically high explosives have 3 - 5 times over-pressure (speed of the blast wave) of a black powder explosion because the decomposition occurs much more rapidly then the "burning" of black powder. While a black powder explosion will tend to push solid material out of the way a high explosive is much more likely to shatter the object. Like the difference between pushing a rock vs. hitting it with a sledge-hammer.

[bigmac@work]

MAN O MAN!! I love this site. What a significantly diverse array of visitors. I've spent 6 years in institutions of higher learning and I feel all that time has been wasted. I could have learned everything I needed to know just by perusing the various topics on this forum. Our posters know everything about everything. Salute!!

PS I know I have a sarcastic bent from time to time, but I'm serious on this one. You guys are amazing...

bigmac out!

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