Philosophy -OT-

[Von Schmidt]

Was just curious how many of you CM gamers read classical philosophy. I myself just finished reading Clausewitz's treatise on war as well as Rousseau's "The Social Contract". Both works were simply incredible and definitely worth taking the time to read. I personally find philosophy somewhat more challenging to study since it requires far more personal reflection and exploration as to discerning the idea in question. I'm currently reading Aristotles "Metaphysics" and am planning on reading Plato's "The Republic". Any other book suggestions out there? My preferences lay primarily with 18th century philosophy and I humbly recommend any work by Voltaire, Diderot or Montiscurie. What can I say, it must be the revolutionary in me

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War is an act of violence intended to compel our opponent to fulfill our will.

-Carl Von Clausewitz

[Admiral]

Von Schmidt,

I studied a bit of philosophy in college. I highly recommend the Greek authors, and you seem to have already discovered them. One of my favorites is Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics. Plato's Meno is a short and very interesting dialogue on whether virtue can be taught.

Also, and perhaps of more interest to people on this forum, would be Plato's Laches, which is about courage. Nicias, a famous Athenian general in the Peloponnesian War (who later met with disaster on the Sicilian expedition), is one of the interlocutors.

For the moderns, Hobbes and Locke are great. You could not go very wrong by reading the U.S. Constitution and the Federalist Papers, either.

Nelson

[Guest Michael emrys]

I was a philosophy major in college. You might try reading A History of Western Philosophy by Bertrand Russel. It gives an excellent overview of its subject, though of course says nothing about Eastern philosophy. But reading Russel would give you an idea of which thinkers you wanted to pursue further.

Academic philosophy is a fairly rarified taste, one which I no longer much indulge. But I am extremely grateful for the years I invested in its study, for I feel that I derived an intellectual discipline that I would not have so easily come by otherwise. If I were king ( ), some exposure to formal philosophy would be required in all the nation's highschools. Only...teach it so it's interesting and exciting, guys.

Michael

[Nick Carter]

I got my BA majoring in philosophy, and here are my faves:

Heraclitus and Parmenites, which are usually given lipservice by the Platonists, but are available in excellent translations from the University of Toronto (my alma mater) are quite fascinating, and quite similar to Lao Tsu and Chuang Tsu, the Taoist philosopher/theologians.

Since we play a WW2 game, then everyone's favorite nazi philosopher, Heidegger, is well worth reading, and it's easy to overlook his politics during the war.

Aristotle, Avicenna (Ibn Sina) and Thomas Aquinas are important to the tracing of philosophical thought in our society.

Then of course, there's Ayn Rand, who some revile, but I rather like.

Don't overlook sociology, I loved Peter Berger's "The Social Construction of Reality".

Bishop Berkeley has some interesting things to say on the nature of reality as well.

Von Clausewitz and Sun Tzu are of course excellent for those interested in the philosophy of war.

the great thing about philosophy is so much is subsumed by it, so that you can branch out into sociology, theology, psychology (Jung is quite important for understanding the Nazi regime).

Of course instead of reading you could just play CM.

[Chupacabra]

Kant is IMO the father of modern philosophy, although he's not the easiest read, but he's definitely worth reading. Hume is good fun. Locke and Hobbes are key for understanding 18th and 19th C. history. Nietszche's cool, Schopenhauer's depressing but interesting, and it's a shame Heidiger supported the Nazis, he has some interesting ideas.

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[Gremlin]

Nietzsche is definitely worth investigating, particularly if your tastes run towards the literary and you have an interest in postmodernism, which he influenced enormously. His appropriation by the Nazis is also of interest. Ditto Wagner's, if you're interested in music.

I'd recommend avoiding contemporary academic philosophy like the plague, as it's enormously recondite and irrelevant to anything remotely approaching a practical concern most of the time.

Alan Watts and William James are two of the most interesting and useful Western philosophers. The New Testament is also fascinating on a philosophical level. Marcus Aurelius's Meditations, written while warring on Rome's borders, are interesting. The Transcendentalists (principly Emerson and Thoreau) are fascinitating and literarily remarkable. Ditto George Eliot and Samuel Butler (the Victorian one).

I've found Eastern philosophy vastly more interesting, challenging, and profitable than the reams of Western stuff I've studied, frankly.

A few worth looking for:

Sun Tzu, Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu. Wing-Tsit Chan's superb A Source Book in Chinese Philosophy (Princeton). Peter Harvey's An Introduction to Buddhism (Cambridge). Huang Po, Bodhidharma, Lin-Chi, Hui-Neng, the Diamond Sutra, the Vimalikirti Sutra. The Principal Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, and the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali (excellent translations of the first two by Shree Purohit Swami).

Many more if anyone wants suggestions

[This message has been edited by Gremlin (edited 01-07-2001).]

[Frenchy]

Got my BA in Philosophy in 1982...reading Plato's "Republic" will give you a good background as to what MacArthur did in Japan during the Occupation. He put many of Plato's ideas to practice.

As for my favorites, Heraclitus and Socrates. I try to live by his statement...""Everything in moderation, including moderation."

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[Jadayne]

I can't beleive no one's mentioned Machiavelli's "The Prince" -not straight philosophy by any means, but does go hand in hand with Clausewitz, Sun Tzu, and Plato.

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"I'm the Quarterback. I make the plays. You back the plays I make." -Harvey Keitel to his adopted son in the movie "Dusk til Dawn" (about 3 hours before they're both ripped apart and eaten alive by vampires)

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

I can't believe Pillar hasn't posted here yet. This is right up his alley..

I bet myself 2 bucks that he would have a long post in here before it gets to two pages...

[Guest aaronb]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *Captain Foobar*:

I can't believe Pillar hasn't posted here yet. This is right up his alley.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He's out of town, otherwise yes, he'd be here.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>(Nietzsche's) appropriation by the Nazis is also of interest.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This misuse was aided by his sister, who selectively published or witheld his writings after his death, with an eye to supporting Nazi positions.

Nietzsche's greatest utility to fascism was relativism - Mussolini used relativism to great effect in developing the fascist philosophy.

Beyond that, many of Nietzsche's ideas had to be bent out of recognition to serve Hitler et al - Nietzsche's 'uberman' was little like the Nazi concept of 'superman', except in it's rejection of reason and exaltation of raw, unprocessed feeling or 'will'.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I can't beleive no one's mentioned Machiavelli's "The Prince<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you're going to read The Prince, may I suggest "The Discourses". This work is directed towards political philosophy (Machiavelli prefers a republic), and discusses the 'why' of ruling. The Prince was simply the 'how' of ruling, at all costs.

As a good primer to the area, pickup Bertrand Russell's 'the problems of philosphy', then go through his recommended readings.

And, once you're thoroughly ill from Plato, Nietzsche, Heidegger and Sartre - pickup some Aristotle, Rand, and Peikoff for a refreshing change.

[ntg84]

I just read See Spot Run, and I still didn't understand parts of it. But its up there with Voltaire and Plato I'm sure.

[Guest Pillar]

I'm here.

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gremlin:

I've found Eastern philosophy vastly more interesting, challenging, and profitable than the reams of Western stuff I've studied, frankly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would generally second that.

Somewhat in the same vein, I never could quite figure out what the Gospels were getting at until I read some of Suzuki's writings on Zen in the mid-'60s. Then it finally began making a kind of sense to me.

Michael

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

posted by Pillar:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, it looks like I owe me 2 bucks... PAY UP!!!

[Jarmo]

Sun Tzu is definitely worthy reading for any CM'er. If only to improve gameplay.

And for other reasons.

I first read it to improve my chances against my brother in Strategic Conquest.

Did no good, as he read it as well.

I most enjoy reading philosophy conflicting with my natural way of thinking.

[hnh3_cm]

anti-spam bump

[Gremlin]

Michael, good point. I've found that studying some of the relatively alien philosophies of the East has provided a useful contrast to and elucidator of Western intellectual and religious traditions. A study of Zen, Mahayana Buddhist, Taoist, and Upanishadic thought should be considered almost mandatory for anyone interested in the Gospels or Western mystical traditions. The overlap and contrasts are intriguing and thought-provoking.

Aldous Huxley's classic The Perennial Philosophy is a fascinating and eminently readable distillation of that sort of interdisciplinary and intercultural examination of the world's mystical traditions.

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I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.

--Einstein

[This message has been edited by Gremlin (edited 01-08-2001).]

[Holman]

One of the problems with modern academic philosophy is that it is written only for other academics. This is similar to most academic literary criticism, which is written not for the general intelligent reader but, again, only for highly specialized scholars. I could go into the reasons for this, but they mostly have to do with the "publish or perish" system. Professors *must* write several big books over the course of a career simply to keep a job, and you can imagine what this inflation does to the average level of quality.

However, amid all the verbosity there are some good and intelligent writers. One I can think of immediately is Charles Taylor, whose book "Sources of the Self: the Making of Modern Identity" is an excellent discussion of the idea of individualism in the West from Plato to the present.

Martyr

[Gremlin]

As someone who used to inhabit academe but just narrowly escaped to tell the tale , I'd say that a lot of the specialist literature in the liberal arts is not merely hard for the general, educated reader, but also for the specialists themselves. Just about every professor I've known has decried how hopelessly self-absorbed and convoluted academic journals and books have become.

It's a shame the system encourages this instead of urging academics to publish and lecture in a way that would benefit society as a whole. There's an enormous disjunction between the Ivory Tower and those outside it, making the former largely irrelevant and the latter horribly ill-educated.

Contributing to this problem is our society's long-standing tendency to take an almost totally utilitarian approach to education: you go to college to get a degree that will get you a high-paying job. So, liberal arts get the token treatment while applied sciences and business get the funding and prestige.

Plato and Socrates are spinning in their graves.

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To refrain from imitation is the best revenge. --Marcus Aurelius

[stevetherat]

If any of you non-philosophites are wondering what the hell has happenend to the CM BB, find a book called "Sophies World" (I can't remember the author, but he's north European).

This book tries to explain philospohic genres and thought from the viewpoint of a father explaining it to his young daughter. It is very easy to read and understand, and as a test, the author has included a little puzzle at the end. If you have understood the book you will 'get' the end. Othewise, a re-read is in order!

Good luck

Steve

[deanco]

I've one of those weirdos who read philosophy for the cool ideas that are in the books. I really like the French cats, Camus, Sartre. I dig the concept of putting philosophical ideas in popular format, such as plays and stories. Books like The Plague are good stories with a message so to speak. It's disheartening to hear that modern philosophy is becoming 'divorced from reality' as I have always dug reading what an incredibly smart person has to say about an incredibly tough problem. The great philosophy books I have read have stayed with me through the years and sort of act as beacons in my life. Too bad we won't be getting any of this kind of writing from the current crop of dudes.

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DeanCo--

CM interface mods: http://mapage.cybercable.fr/deanco/

[Marlow]

I can't believe that no one beat me to this. Time for a little sing-a-long:

Alright everyone, and a one, and a two...

Immanuel Kant was a real piss-ant who was very rarely stable.

Heideggar, Heideggar was a boozy beggar who could think you under the table.

David Hume could out-consume Wilhelm Freidrich Hegel.

And Whittgenstein was a beery swine who was just as sloshed as Schlegel.

There's nothing Nieizsche couldn't teach 'ya 'bout the raising of the wrist.

Socrates, himself, was permanently pissed.

John Stewart Mill, of his own free will, after half a pint of shanty was particularly ill.

Plato, they say, could stick it away, half a crate of whiskey every day!

Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle,

And Hobbes was fond of his Dram.

And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart: 'I drink, therefore I am.'

Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;

A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.

[Gremlin]

I'd highly recommend Alan Watts for the sort of reading you're talking about. He had an amazing gift for talking about very complex and otherwise confusing issues in a very entertaining and memorable way. His main focus was on presenting Eastern philosophies to the West and on spiritual psychology, for lack of a better term.

Literary works like those of Camus, Sartres, Nietzsche, et al. are often some of the most engaging and enjoyable expositions or examinations of philosophy, no question. Arguably, all literature is philosophical, in that every author has an implicit worldview, but there are so many great literary works that specifically try to discuss "big issues," that it's boggling. Just thumb through the Norton literature anthologies for examples.

One reason I like and recommend a lot of classic Eastern primary texts is precisely because they were geared towards understanding and practical application, not mental masturbation (though there's a lot of that in Eastern thought, too). Just look at Sun Tzu, Lao Tzu, the Buddha, etc. for examples of philosophy you can actually use, discussed in ways that stick in your mind long after you put the book down.

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To refrain from imitation is the best revenge. --Marcus Aurelius

[Herr Oberst]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chupacabra:

Kant is IMO the father of modern philosophy, although he's not the easiest read, but he's definitely worth reading. Hume is good fun. Locke and Hobbes are key for understanding 18th and 19th C. history. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I much prefer Calvin and Hobbes for my philosophical musings.

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To the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee...

[This message has been edited by Herr Oberst (edited 01-08-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Herr Oberst (edited 01-08-2001).]

[Holman]

At the risk of sounding like I'm reversing my earlier posting, I'll complicate it by saying that perhaps there is yet some good coming out of the apparent glut of philosophical writing in the academy. For the most part, people who write in the humanities mean well, and they make an effort to do a good job. With this many smart people writing so much, there is bound to be some good work produced...

The problem, of course, is weeding out the chaff. Sometimes it takes a generation or two before the best ideas from previous generations are really identified and made useful.

A person interested in the living issues of contemporary intellectual writing would do well to seek out some of the overviews and reader's guides available. A good bookstore (especially one near a good university) can offer some help.