Bogging down on railways??

[Richard Morgan]

Whilst playing the "All or Nothing" scenario (as British) I had no less than three tanks (2 Shermans and a Churchill) bog down - yes BOG DOWN - on a railway :eek: This struck me as very, very unlikely. Now before we go any further, I must ask you to consider what constitutes a railway? From this point, I am going to use the American word for it - railroad - because this term is a far better description of what it is. For a start, the site of the railroad is levelled to produce a near level gradient. Hills and valleys are negotiated by constructing cuttings and embankments, and in extreme cases bridges and tunnels. A bed of ballast is then laid: larger stones at and near the base, graduating to finer grade stones at the surface. Railway sleepers, typically consisting of heavy baulks of wood (nowadays, concrete or even steel) are then laid across the ballast, and then the rails themselves are bolted to the sleepers. A typical design load for the completed railroad is 25 tons per axle, and axles on rolling stock are usually 3 or so feet apart. (My source for all this is my brother who is in the railroad/railway business :cool Now it seems to me from all this that a) a railroad is what you would realistically get if you fed the average metal road a course of anabolic steroids: (it is an uber road) and that it would be absolutely impossible for any tank - even a Maus - to become bogged down on one. Tanks even use "liberated" sleepers as unditching beams for heaven's sake, and the whole surface of the railroad consists of sleepers, reinforced by a pair solid steel rails to which they are bolted, laid on ballast. I will concede that driving along a railroad in a wheeled vehicle must be a bone jarring experience and I believe that CMBO rules reflect this, but I would contend that it would be ideal going for tanks - and in the light of all this PURLEEESE could somebody tell me HOW a tank could ever manage to become bogged down on a railroad? I put this to my brother, and he thought it impossible as well :confused: I will listen respectfully to your replies but must warn you I will take some convincing on this one.

Cheers,

Richard.

[Vanir Ausf B]

"Bogging" does not neccesarily mean "stuck in the mud". It also includes throwing a track.

[Maximus]

The answer is very simple in terms of CM rules.

Well first of all, did the tank become immobilized? If it did then that's even easier to explain.

A bog and then an immobilization in CM is abstracted. Meaning that it could mean exactly what it looks like, ie getting stuck in the mud, or it could mean throwing a track. But of course in order to throw a track without getting hit, the tank would have to become bogged first. To throw a track while on a railroad bed could easily have been done, especially when going cross-grain across the railings.

[Banshee]

I think CM models railways accurately. If you do a Fast move down a railway , you will probably get immobilized.. if you do a move, you probably wont. It is very rough going on the driving on a railway, and going fast even more so.. best advice is to stay off the rails as much as possible.

[Guest Babra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Richard Morgan:

...and in the light of all this PURLEEESE could somebody tell me HOW a tank could ever manage to become bogged down on a railroad? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A steel vehicle, running on steel treads, trying to cross a raised steel rail. What's the coefficient of friction on that?

[Darwin]

If I remember correctly, when I played that scenario it was raining. Was the weather random or set to rain or am I completely off here?

Anyhow, if it was raining, I figure you would have the chance of bogging to some extant on all but paved surfaces.

A railraod tile would have open ground round on either side of the rails themselves. I would assume that due to abstractions the entire hex has a chance of bogging associated with it rather than seperate formulas for being on the track or right next to it.

[David Aitken]

If you think about it, a railway has all the elements of a tank trap, but scaled down. A big train is fine on a railway because its wheels interface with the rails and it travels along the metal bit. Tanks aren't designed for railways and railways aren't designed for tanks, so they could cause a good bit of trouble for each other.

[Moon]

Actually, Darwin, bogging is in fact not associated with a whole terrain tile, but rather with individual terrain within. Tiles are really only used in the map editor to construct maps. The in-game engine uses a much more detailed grid than 20mx20m tiles.

[JonS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

[QB]If you think about it, a railway has all the elements of a tank trap, but scaled down... [QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is all well and good, but does the weather affect the chance of bogging on rails?

[Dan Robertson]

Actually I can think of two reasons for this.

Firstly railways themselves are flat and straight, however as you described in you post they have cuttings and embankments which are very steep and have numerous features which may bog down a tank.

The level of detail in a CM map is not that great the tank may have fallen down a step on one side of the track and then jammed its nose in the step up on the other side. A step of 1m would possibly do the job.

Failing that going down the track could present problems, for example if you put a (tank) track on one side of a (rail) track and attempt to turn. The steel track could act like a tyre iron and force the track slowly off the tank.

Considering the shaped of a rail this is quite possible.

Either way I would expect that a rail track would be classed my most armies as an obstical. Abit a one which would be quite easy to cross if you are carefull. However the problem with CM is that you can't tell where a railway is crossible.

What I would suggest is that the Tank should be able to cross or not cross. Not cross and then get bogged

[ 08-20-2001: Message edited by: Dan Robertson ]

[Dar]

I think a higher chance for bogging down or becoming immobilized on the rails is quite realistic. Think of all the weight an armored vehicle puts on its tracks, and how the tracks distribute that weight over a wide surface area. Compare that to being straddled across a rail or two, where all that weight is now on one or two small areas, and I imagine there'd a great chance of breaking the coupling between two tracks. Also, trying to straddle one or two rails, i.e. "follow" the tracks, is another good way to get stuck. Those steel rails would be hard to grip from such a shallow angle to climb, and they're designed to support heavy freight locomotives that typically weigh more than any tank ever has or will, and they don't budge very easily. Additionally, the ballast, which is mostly loosely-packed gravel for supporting a fixed rail and water drainage, may not allow much traction for a vehicle off the rails.

Just my $.02!

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Babra:

A steel vehicle, running on steel treads, trying to cross a raised steel rail. What's the coefficient of friction on that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i believe that mu would be equal to 5.867 if those are steel tracks.

[ASL Veteran]

I had a Kubelwagen, on the road, bog down crossing over the rails where they intersect with the road in All or Nothing. It has actually happened to me several times in that scenario. I've had several trucks do that too (going over to where the 50mm AT starts). Try to explain that one :eek:

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASL Veteran:

I had a Kubelwagen, on the road, bog down crossing over the rails where they intersect with the road in All or Nothing. Try to explain that one :eek:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alright, I'll give it a shot: Blew a tire. CM does not model the driver of the first truck getting out to warn the following trucks about the protruding RR spike.

[ 08-20-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]

[Guest Babra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASL Veteran:

Try to explain that one :eek:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Beats me, but not a year goes by that some local doesn't get eliminated by a commuter train the exact same way.

[Triumvir]

Just to interject; throwing a track isn't bogging. Throwing a track is immobilising. I've seen APCs reset tracks before and it's not an easy task at the best of times, and certainly not something to be done under fire.

[Richard Morgan]

Some very interesting points, but the Jury is still out on this one... Are there any serving or ex Cavalrymen out there who could give an informed opinion on this?

[JonS]

Has anyone determined yet whether the incidence of bogging on railway tracks in CM is affected by the weather?

"All or Nothing" is the only scen I can think of where this has hppened to me. Although, "AoN" is also the only scen where I have made extensive use of railways to try and avoid the muddy ground ...

(I can't do any testing at the moment. Sorry)

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Banshee:

I think CM models railways accurately. If you do a Fast move down a railway , you will probably get immobilized.. if you do a move, you probably wont. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does this actually have any validity? I mean, I read somewhere that moving FAST or just MOVE has NO EFFECT with respect to increasing a units chance to bog. Fast or Move, it's the same chance to bog in Mud.

Comments VERY welcome on this.

[Greenman]

Dunno about the chances of bogging with Fast or Move ...

I tired to send four trucks full of troops over the rail line in Any Port (part 5). They just stopped on the tracks until the next turn, when they completed the order and made it over the tracks. Unfortunately in the mean time, the pause caused my green troops to bolt from the trucks and run back (!) the way the came ... pushed my plan back a few turns. (CO's ought to carry cattle prods for those troublesome green troops.)

[Banshee]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASL Veteran:

I had a Kubelwagen, on the road, bog down crossing over the rails where they intersect with the road in All or Nothing. It has actually happened to me several times in that scenario. I've had several trucks do that too (going over to where the 50mm AT starts). Try to explain that one :eek:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im betting you were doing a fast move, try the same thing with a move command. With Fast move I get immobilized a lot, but never in AON with just move. Speed is a factor.

[ASL Veteran]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Banshee:

Im betting you were doing a fast move, try the same thing with a move command. With Fast move I get immobilized a lot, but never in AON with just move. Speed is a factor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've actually played AON about six times PBEM as German and I've bogged numerous times using both move and fast move. I did bog using fast move the first time and I've been using move ever since. However, they still bog quite frequently using move as well. The tracks where they cross the paved road and the tracks by the 50 ATG always end up with at least one German truck or kubelwagen stuck on one or the other everytime I play. There is enough transport to get the job done even if one vehicle bogs though so it is just a little annoying - not a game breaker.