COMBAT MISSIONS: Quality Control ?

[Stacheldraht]

It's no secret that the CM community has its share of loud-mouth know-it-alls. Please don't let them do more harm to the community and wargaming in general than they've already done. Imagine an enthusiastic new player coming to this forum and to the various fan sites. Then they ask a question or submit a mod only to be mocked, flamed, snidely ordered to "do a search," etc. That's just going to drive gamers away from what these "grogs" view as their own sacred preserve. That's a real shame.

Manx, please keep up the great work in supporting CM.

[themaltese]

For crying out loud! Those that would complain about your site, Manx, are ignorant idiots! When one looks at the basics, your site is not about WWII, it's about CMBO! I am a military historian by hobby, and I don't visit your site to get or criticize information that you posted there about WWII. I come to your site to get "stuff" to make my very scarce time of relaxation in playing CMBO a better or more pleasant experience. I've put together a few scenarios... Are they historically accurate? Hell no! I've got a problem with historically accurate scenarios... they are history, and hence, I know all the "surprises" and outcomes involved. What fun is that? Hence, I like fictional scenarios better. To me, they create a more realistic perspective in that you don't know what you're about to encounter (similar to what troops went through during WWII). Now THAT makes a challenge! Those of you that would come to Manx's site as a resource for WWII, please just go elsewhere to gather your "accurate" information about WWII. Otherwise, if you want "stuff" for CMBO, I hope you are all intelligent enough to be able to discern between what you want and don't want for your game!

Keep up the awesome work, Manx, and don't ruin your vacation by wasting your time thinking about the ignorant and arrogant remarks made by a select group of idiots!

[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: themaltese ]

[Hawkmek]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Over the past few months or so, i have been receiving a steady stream of criticism regarding some of the content that has been published on the site. Basically, this has been specifically directed at the lack of quality and historical accuracy of the some of the material that has been submitted. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some people feel the need to always correct others. Be it spelling/grammar or historical data on the Widget MKIV.

You are the one who puts in your time and wffort, not them. You are the one who provides a needed service for the CM community. Keep up the good work, look at our positive remarks, ignore the negative.

Randal says it all in Clerks,

"I hope it feels so good to be right. There's nothing more exhilirating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?"

[Michael Dorosh]

MANX

Thanks for the reply; no pressure intended - I just whittled my own inbox down from 600 to 100, including photos for my website that people were nice enough to send back in February sometime, so I know exactly where you are coming from.

Aside from Clubfoot's over the top rant, I think some good suggestions have been posted here, especially Germanboy's suggestion that positive feedback be more common.

A way to do this, and to get the negative emails out of your inbox, would be to add a review feature to all your hosted mods and scenarios. That lets the historical grogs get things off your chest, and also encourages others to give positive feedback. Check out the scenario depot for a great example of this system in action.

I think this would eliminate a lot of your problems, and perhaps even increase traffic as well as encourage the designers and modders to "do better."

Good luck.

[Admiral Keth]

Manx,

You already know my opinion after a couple of email to the Dirty Dozen group; screw the b@st@rds and the horse they rode in on! Your site, your rules. If the anal-retentive twits have a problem with any aspect of the CMs site they:

1) Should keep their opinions to themselves;

2) Failing #1, they should redirect their issues to the scenario, mod, or article authors;

3) Not download, install, or use anything to which they object.

The CMs site serves a greater good by providing the CM community with a vast resource of CM-related files.

Again, as part of the Dirty Half-Dozen, I will respect your final decision, but it will be with much regret. The entire CM community will be deminished by the cessation of the CMs site.

Perhaps by way of alleviating some of the flak you have been receiving, a disclaimer could be displayed on the CMs site specifically stating that some of the content may not be historically accurate. Also state that if there are objectors not to send you hate mail, but instead submit their issues to the authors. I think we have 1 or 2 lawyers in our midst who might assist with crafting some verbage...anybody?

'Nuff said.

[Jev.Dk]

Manx, after reading all of the above posts, is there any doubt left that we cant live without your site. Not only the mods are stunnning but also the varoius artikles concerning the different tanks and other stuff. If a few complain about this and that, then...so what??? You know you can be proud of your page, and if you need any reassurance then re-read this thead again.

No matter what you do, there will always be people who will be envious or think they know better!! There are even some who still think that the moon landing was a fake and that the states bribed Japan to attack Pearl Harbour. You just cant make those people happy. So to narrow it down to a single line:

Keep doing it, as long as its fun, and dont let those nobrainers get to you.

Sincerely Jev

[Bigdog]

COMBAT MISSION is the best web site for the game period! It so good I would pay to be a member Please hang in there Manx!

As far as these nay sayers go GET A FREAKIN LIFE! The man is doing this great work on his own dime! If you can do better then do it, if not then keep your negative BS to yourselves.

Big Dog

[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: Bigdog ]

[Erwin]

Your site is the best for finding mods and scenarios. Hope you can keep it going. Let the whiners start their own site!

Erwin

[CJMello]

Manx, keep doing what you are now and don't change a thing. Its great. :cool:

I love the MODS !!!

[Panzer Leader]

Well, like a get-well card passed around at work, I guess I oughta add my two bits: Manx, your site is the best looking, most full of content, oftenest updated site for Combat Mission.

It is truly the unofficial Official CM:BO web-site. The content is great and if there are occaisional complainers or what-not, they are the EXCEPTION not the rule. Remember that this game caters to many types of gamers: grogs, casual gamers, srat fans, sim experts, everyone, and no single aspect (BTS found this out!) will always please all of them.

I do like the idea of a rating and feed-back system though. Hey look, more work for you!

If however, it is the money or personal life influencing your decision, then my answer is: ya gotta do what ya gotta do. Whichever path you take, honest people will respect you for it.

[Scipio]

Manx,

your modsite is the best I know, IMO even better then the CMHQ.

If somebody don't like a mod - hell, who cares? Nobody is forced to install it!!!

[SS Sniper]

Originally posted by Clubfoot:

[QB]Ok fellas. Here's what it comes down to. If 500 people look at the site a day, and five of them send Manx negative e-mails, that's 35 "go f!@# yourself" e-mails he has to see every week.

Ask yourself this. How many times have you sent an e-mail of affirmation directly to Manx to ease the pain. None? The angry minority is quite vocal, while the happy majority sits silent.

I think Manx site is great and I have let him know that in e-mails, and Clubfoot is right come on guys lets see the happy majority stand up. Manx is one of the great guys you find that supports this game of ours and he's a class act. Manx please keep your site up its one of the best on the web.

SS Peiper

[IPA]

Manx,

Reiterating everyone else's comments....your site is superb and greatly appreciated....I visit it everyday.........I can totally understand your frustrations, don't let those Jack n' Dannys get to you.

Thanks and best wishes,

Peter

[YECoyote]

Manx,

don't pay too much attention to the loud MINORITY. Those self-centred-legend-in-their-own-minds can just find a stake and sit on it to get themselves off.

The silent MAJORITY has spoken here, and we appreciate what you have provided to us. Keep up the good work. AND, do what you should have done to those emails condemning your work. READ them, have a good laugh, and DELETE them.

[Manx]

When people mix the "add-ons" that people have produced for CM up with WW2, think about this: Is ANY CM mod absolutely historically accurate? Is it possible within the limits of the CM Scenario Editor at this point in time, to ever get that engagement you've read about in such and such a book (is that info accurate), spot on? I say NOT.

Does anyone have the right to say their tactics work better than someone else's. Thats all a matter of opinion as far as i see it. In short; who is right and who is wrong anyway?

[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: Manx ]

[Enoch]

I'll add my voice to the chorus of approval.

Manx, your site is great. It is my first stop when looking for mods or scenerios. If you want more positive feddback via email I'd be more than willing to send a weekly email with positive affirmation.

Do what makes you happy. Don't let the buggers get you down.

[Manx]

I just read through the entire thread and there's a lot of good suggestions in there that i will have a think about. I especially like the one about the wine from WINECAPE!

I never wanted this to turn into a "lets all praise Manx and COMBAT MISSIONS" kinda thread, but i really appreciate all the comments you have made.

Let me point out that all the email i have received (and have been receiving ever since the site first started) regarding the "quality" of the content hosted on the site hasn't been abnoxious or abusive in any way shape or form, to either me personally or to any of the sites individual contributors, apart from one time when i got a "Manx - Your Site SUX" mail sent to me. He was probably right at the time. No, people have just expressed their opinions on what i am hosting, that is all. My concern in all this is how accurate people expect a mod/scenario/article to be? It's no secret that i have withdrawn a couple of historical WW2 articles on the site after feedback received from a number people. The fact of the matter is, these articles WERE proclaiming to represent historical fact (as far as it is known), and as such the articles could have been better researched. 3rd Party add-ons relating specifically to the game however, shouldn't be put under the microscope in the same way IMHO. Everyone is free not to d/l anything that they regard as being un-historical if that is their preference.

I don't know of any mod/scenario/article author who wouldn't gladly be prepared to change something they have produced if it is pointed out to them beyond any doubt that an error has been made, and as such, i would encourage you to send constructive feedback to them directly on how they might go about improving their work. Also, if you think their stuff is great let them know that too! It will, i'm sure, give them the encouragement and confidence to go on to produce even more and better stuff.

If one thing comes out of this discussion, i hope it's the fact that people appreciate just a little more, the amount of time and effort that a lot people put into supporting this game, either through modding, scenario design, or sitting down and actually taking the time to put down their thoughts and opinions on tactics...whether the work they do claim's to be 100% historically accurate or otherwise!

[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: Manx ]

[Freak]

Manx, you need to change you SIG. Something like....the ex-dirty half dozen

[Frenchy]

Manx:

Nothing wrong with your site. You have no obligation to check for historical accuracy. That should be done by scenario designers and mod makers, or any others that submit to your site. Those that have a beef about "historical inaccuracies" should email the designer of said projects.

You do an outstanding job. I'd hate to see the site fold. However, I would understand if you had to do it.

[Turkish]

"Or better yet, shut yer ****in' pie-holes before someone blows the whistle about your identities and YOUR site collapses under the spam."

I really wish somebody WOULD blow the whistle. You can't confront someone who's invisible, and I'd like to see their site if they have one. I'd be willing to bet that the above mentioned person or person's site is mediocre when compared to Combat Missions.

"Aside from Clubfoot's over the top rant..."

Not trying to start anything, but I thought Clubfoot was right on the money. I see so much of this anonymous criticism in the real world much less here, that I feel an urge to confront these people if I'm able. These, "smile in your face and talk **** behind your back" people really get under my skin.

[Wileybot]

It sounds like the complainers of the world have added doubt about the existance of this site. Simple put, you ask yourself why? all this energy and time and all they do is dispute! Well Manx, this is the only CM site that i look at on a daily basis why? cuz its the best!! thats due to all your hard work. I certainly could understand you if you need to shut this down because its taking to much time, but plz reconsider if its just the "raggers" that got you down, screw em. Plz keep up the great work and if you decide not to, well its been a great time, THANKS.

[Manx]

I've received a ton of e-mail offering opinions and advice, and my Inbox, which was in a pretty bad state of confusion before, is now in total and utter chaos!

I reckon that everything that probably needs to be said, has been said. So, lets just put this to bed for now. All i probably need is a little time to have a think about how to approach running the site and on how it will conduct operations in the future.

Thanks once again for all your comments.

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Turkish:

Not trying to start anything, but I thought Clubfoot was right on the money. I see so much of this anonymous criticism in the real world much less here, that I feel an urge to confront these people if I'm able. These, "smile in your face and talk **** behind your back" people really get under my skin.[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Much of what Clubfoot said was true, but it has to be added that you can't demand respect. Manx (and Clubfoot, for that matter) have mine, but that is because they earned it. If other people don't respect their work, that is their right, too, and they do have a right to express themselves.

If they came on here rather than emailed Manx privately, we would be tearing them apart for that, wouldn't we? Calling them cowards and telling them they should have kept their criticisms private?

I do make the odd historical comment on mods here now and then, but I like to think I always do so constructively - and you will notice that when I do so, I usually make sure to comment on the features that I do like at the same time. I appreciate it when others do the same for my mods or scenarios.

I know Clubfoot expressed the frustration felt by many modders and designers (myself included) that few people take the time to give positive feedback. Unfortunately, in the end, no one paid us or ask us to do what we do - and we have to take or leave it on that basis. There have been some attempts to encourage positive feedback - ie unofficial "awards" for sites, etc., but I always felt those rather exclusive, no matter how well deserved they were (and certainly Manx's site would be a contender in any category you chose to judge CM-related sites by).

All I am saying is - you can't demand to be loved. You just gotta be yourself, sit back, and let it happen...

[frode]

To all the detractors of this site:

Screw historical accuracy...it's a computer game, folks. If you want historical accuracy, go for it, but don't force it down everyone else's throats. The mods and scenarios on this site are great.

Keep up the good work here... :eek:

[benpark]

Manx,

Keep up the good work, and thank you for faciliating a site for everyone in the CMBO community. That some imbicils are complaining about your hard work , which is, in effect a contribution to the rest of us, runs contrary to rational thought. Most of these dunderheads calling for "historical accuracy" probably don't get out of their caves very much, and wouldn't know the first thing about gratitude.

GREAT WORK, MANX!

Thank you

benpark