It just isn't right!

[lcm1947]

I brought this up before and some of the answers I got got me to relook at this aspect of the game, but no it isn't right not being able to command your turret to turn where you want it to point. Many situations come up where it would really be helpful. I tryed the answer of commanding the tank to spray the machine gun fire in the direction I wanted the turret to point but that is silly, wasting all that ammo plus what if you where sitting there waiting for a tank or whatever to past by a certain location but didn't want the whole tank to point in that direction. You can't do it. Am I the only one having big problems with this? :mad:

[Schrullenhaft]

This is a limitation with CM1. The reason for the whole hull turning with the turret was to speed up bringing the gun onto target (the combo of turret and hull rotating is faster than the turret alone) and to bring the better armor of the front hull in line with the target. There will be limitations and times when you don't want the hull to rotate, but unfortunately your request won't be added to CM1. It's possible that CM2 may see a turret-only rotate command, but also quite probably not (don't remember what BTS's exact feelings on this are).

You may want to do a search on Turret and Rotate (among a multitude of other possible keywords) and see if you can find the discussions on this.

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Order

From: Battalion Commander

To: Commander of 3rd tank, 1st platoon, B company.

Rotate your turret 36 degrees to the left ASAP, and keep it there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Repeat for every tank in the battalion...

Seems silly, doesn't it?

Cheers

Olle

[ 04-09-2001: Message edited by: Olle Petersson ]

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

Order

From: Battalion Commander

To: Commander of 3rd tank, 1st platoon, B company.

Rotate your turret 36 degrees to the left ASAP, and keep it there.

Repeat for every tank in the battalion...

Seems silly, doesn't it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The reason it is not silly is the obvious fact that the player is not assuming the role of only a battalion commander. He is also a company commander, a platoon leader, a squad leader, and, yes, a tank commander.

If you were only a battalion commander, you would give general orders to your companies (hold this area, seize that objective), and the TacAI would give the detailed orders to your platoons and squads to carry it out. The game already lets you micromange the hell out of your units, so let's drop this silly "micromanagement goes against the spririt of the game" stuff.

[ 04-09-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

The game already lets you micromange the hell out of your units, ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It doesn't let me do so, it requires me to do so, which IMO is something completely different.

Let's just say I think that the micromanagement required right now is more than enough, and the TacAI that handle the rest is pretty good.

Cheers

Olle

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

It doesn't let me do so, it requires me to do so, which IMO is something completely different.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. Good point. Which reinforces my point that if the game is going to put you in the shoes of a tank commander (which it does) it is not at all silly that some players will want to have the same options that a real world tank commander would have.

If being able to point the turret in a particular direction independent of the hull were to introduce a level of micromanagement not already present in the game, I would be against it as well, but I don't think it would do that at all. It would just add realism IMO.

EDIT: I would like to clarify something. I am not suggesting that TacAI control of the turret disappear, requiring the player to micromanage it at every step. It could funtion the same as it does now, with the added option of the player stepping in and overriding the TacAI control.

[ 04-09-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]

[Mlapanzer]

I agree. I would like to see the rotate turret command also. I'm in a situation now were I have a king tiger that is immobilzed and is much more of a sitting duck than he should be not being able to rotate his turret untill he spots a target.But thanks for the using MG's to turn the turret. I'll be doing that when I get the turn back.

[Skorpion]

Well if we're going to go down that route - how about orders such as "go over that ridge, fire one shot at any enemy you see, and then reverse back down out of sight"?

Number of times I've lost tanks because you can't get them back out of danger quick enough is disgusting.

[LimShady]

I'd want a turret rotate command just so some of the formations would be realistic. When was the last time you saw a column of tanks moving with their turrets all facing forward? Or a wedge for that matter.

You might be assuming the role of the company/platoon/squad leader, but they should've known this is the first place.

Chris

[Wilhammer]

There is somewhat of a work around for this, just area target in the general direction you'd like the turret to point at. To save ammo, just AT without the main gun.

You can add elevation to this as well, just point your Area Fire up or down hill or building.

[LimShady]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wilhammer:

There is somewhat of a work around for this, just area target in the general direction you'd like the turret to point at. To save ammo, just AT without the main gun.

You can add elevation to this as well, just point your Area Fire up or down hill or building.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I used this now... but why should you have to waste ammo to do it....

LimShady

[Wilhammer]

... well, since the AFV mgs usually have tons of ammo, waste is usually not an issue.

Also, if you pick an Area Target that DOES NOT stay in constant LOS while you move, you can't shoot at it.

[Jasper]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skorpion:

Well if we're going to go down that route - how about orders such as "go over that ridge, fire one shot at any enemy you see, and then reverse back down out of sight"?

Number of times I've lost tanks because you can't get them back out of danger quick enough is disgusting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never have a movement order end on a hill top. I 'hunt' to the top then 'reverse' down, and only end the movement order safely out of sight. Have you tried that?

[lcm1947]

One last comment on this subject since I brought it up. You presently tell the tank to turn don't you? You tell them to stop or go don't you? Well, it seems to me that you should also be able to tell them to turn the blessed turret. I really just believe that it is a very important thing to be able to do. And if I just did it on occasion it would't be a big deal, but since I use tanks a lot I'm always frustrated that I can't. Example. I'm sitting there waiting around a corner or building and here comes this Tiger, well I would like to be able to turn the turret and if I miss be able to get the hell of there if I don't pop him. Actually there are dozens of times I would use it. How about crossing a field and just wanting to swing the turret in a given direction just in case the enemy is there. If there is I ready. I don't have to waste a few seconds turning it. Sometimes a few seconds can be the difference between me shooting him or him me. See?

[Lt.Reaper]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

Exactly. Good point. Which reinforces my point that if the game is going to put you in the shoes of a tank commander (which it does)

[ 04-09-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually IMHO I don't believe it does put you in as tank commander. You are the commander of the tank commander. You order movement and targets (if you wish) and the tank commander enacts your orders. This is why there is a command pause. The crew and leader is diseminating your orders

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackthorne:

Actually IMHO I don't believe it does put you in as tank commander. You are the commander of the tank commander. You order movement and targets (if you wish) and the tank commander enacts your orders. This is why there is a command pause. The crew and leader is diseminating your orders<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, I ain't buying it. The commander of the tank commander would be the platoon leader. The game allows you to select the exact target each tank fires at. In real life this is what the tank commander does, not the platoon leader, unless the targets were known in advance and which tank engages which target had been worked out prior to the engagement.

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir Ausf B:

The game allows you to select the exact target each tank fires at. In real life this is what the tank commander does, not the platoon leader, unless the targets were known in advance ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>... which is

exactly the situation here.

You can't order any unit to fire at an unspotted enemy, only at enemies who's location is pinpointed. If there are other enemies appearing it's the TC (TacAI) that handle those.

In real life there's nothing that prevent the platoon leader to perform this kind of micromanagement (except for time constraints and that he's busy doing lots of other stuff).

About the possibility to control turret rotation as is:

I've just discovered that the Ambush command works well for this, to some extent.

I just had a tank issued an ambush target. Then I had that tank back off, out of sight, and perform a lateral move. It kept the gun pointed towards the ambush point, even though it wasn't in LOS...

Cheers

Olle

[Vanir Ausf B]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

... which is

exactly the situation here.

You can't order any unit to fire at an unspotted enemy, only at enemies who's location is pinpointed. If there are other enemies appearing it's the TC (TacAI) that handle those.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I said "in advance" I meant before the shooting even starts.

It goes without saying that you can't shoot at an unspotted enemy.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In real life there's nothing that prevent the platoon leader to perform this kind of micromanagement (except for time constraints and that he's busy doing lots of other stuff).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is exactly why he wouldn't do this in real life. Once the lead starts flying he would be too busy fighting his own tank to micromanage the rest of the platoon. Never mind that at any given moment he could not even be sure that a given tank other than his own has spotted a new target that appears.

Yes, the TacAI will target new targets that appear during the turn. But during the orders phase the player can change any of these with no command pause (much to Meek's consternation). It's not like evey 60 seconds the platoon leader calls time out to confer with his tank commanders in the middle of a fire fight.

Of course all of this ignores the fact that there actually are no tank platoon leaders at all in CM, since there is no command structure for vehicles.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>About the possibility to control turret rotation as is:

I've just discovered that the Ambush command works well for this, to some extent.

I just had a tank issued an ambush target. Then I had that tank back off, out of sight, and perform a lateral move. It kept the gun pointed towards the ambush point, even though it wasn't in LOS...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've heard of this workaround before, but have not tried it. The problem is that giving a tank an ambush order is very dangerous. If another tank comes into view outside of the ambush zone the ambushing tank will ignore it until it is fired upon which is usually too late. It can be safely done is some circumstances.

Really though, being as there are already gimmicky workarounds to make the turret point this way or that anyway (ambush command, area fire) what would be the harm of giving the player a proper command for it that would eliminate the unrealistic side effects?

[ 04-10-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]

[gashford]

Guys

I can foresee a problem with the micro management of turrets that people are asking for whilst also allowing the AI to keep hold of ones you don't want to manage.

How will the AI know when you have finished micro managing the turret and when you are still in control, consequently your tank will get killed by some other threat and we will be reading posts about how the 'AI sux'.

It seems a good compromise to me at the momemnt?

Just my pennies worth.

Graham

[Vanir Ausf B]

Yeah, I thought about that too. The way I envision it is that the turret will simply stay pointed in the direction relative to the hull that you specified until the TacAI sees a target it wants to use the main gun on. It wont be as "sticky" as an ambush command.

Note that I said "direction relative to the hull". It would not be stuck to a spot of terrain like with an ambush command either. If you rotate the hull, the turret will rotate with it. This would allow tanks to move in formation without having to worry about the turret turning to face backwards as you move forwards.

It's not perfect, and there will be times where it won't work as planned, but it will give players more realistic flexability.

[ 04-10-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ]