Legacy of the Wehrmacht

[Commissar]

I am wondering what influence has the Wehrmacht had on the Bundeswehr. Considering how sensitive Germany is on its Nazi past, what influences and traditions have continued into the current German army from the one of WW2? How is the modern German army in terms of fighting ability compared to its former self? I know this is hard to say since the German army hasn't been in an armed conflict since WW2 (I'm not considering any peace enforcement missions), but anyone have a clue? German small arms seem to retain their high quality reputation as well as armor I guess.

[Michael Dorosh]

Aside from being more appropriate to the General Forum, you may find some good answers at www.feldgrau.com

This was recently discussed, unfortunately the archived messages have not been updated so you can't find the answer - but you could try posting again.

The Winhund Division's insignia (a greyhound) is still in use.

The NVA was much more highly influenced by the Wehrmacht than the Bundeswehr, especially in terms of dress and traditions - though I think a move is on to reassociate the BW with the Wehrmacht Heer.

Bear in mind that the relationship of the Wehrmacht to the Old Army was itself strained, and many old regiments only saw continuity through the use of perpetuations by single battalions, or even companies, in the "new" Wehrmacht.

The continuity, then, from the pre-Wehrmacht military to the modern Bundeswehr is serpentine, and there is a definite choice to make - whether perpetuate pre-1933 traditions or Third Reich ones.

[ 07-14-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Los]

This is not necessarily true. I have worked closely myself with the BW, attended some of their schools, and carried on extensive conversatinnos with older vets as well as officers and NCOs on this subject. When the BW was formed in the 1950s it's leadership from corporals on up was composed primarily of hardened WW2 veterans. The tried and true training and doctrinal methods established during the war and even before were continued right along (while the rest of the world picked and chose many of the same principals for their own army too.) Leadership schools used WW2 lessons learned and studied WW2 battles. (Up to today also, Chir river defense by 11th Pzr being an example).

So just because the Germans stopped wearing feldgrau doesn't mean they exschewed all the fine techniques and lessons learned from WW2. Though it is true that today's German Army is much differnt from old. However any army that hasn't fought a war in 55 years is going to be like that to some extent.Cheers...

Los

[Andreas]

I am going to focus on the political aspects here. As LOS said, the post-war leadership of the army was made up of WW2 veterans. My father told me that when he was in the army in the 1960s, they once had a visit from a general who was wearing a WW2 uniform minus the insignia. Once these types started retiring, and with the general societal upheaval in the 1970s, the army's internal education was based around two concepts: 'Innere Fuehrung' (internal guidance or leadership) and 'Buerger in Uniform' (citizen soldier), both very different from what we know from the Wehrmacht. Innere Fuehrung is a concept that I seem to have forgotten most about but I believe it relates to the integration of the army in the democratic process, and the idea that no order given should be in contradiction to the laws governing society. So that if you as a grunt are ordered to do something illegal, you are within your rights to disobey the order. Have a look here: http://www.bundeswehr.de/news/english/6_1_the_concept_of_innere_fuhrung.html

Buerger in Uniform means that wearing the uniform does not set you apart from being a citizen of the republic, with all the rights and duties that entails. The Reichswehr was a state within the state, and that had terrible consequences. So this system is really set up to ensure that the institution Bundeswehr does not cut off its links with the state again. It is also the only way in which you can make conscription work in an open society without external pressure.

Finally, the Bundeswehr had selected famous German generals since about the Napoleonic wars to be the patrons of barracks and ships. Only in recent years have generals that had a very strong association with the Nazi party been taken off the list of acceptable names, and the barracks renamed. The most famous case I can think of is the General Dietl Kaserne in Sonthofen (Gebirgsjaeger, obviously), which was renamed a few years back, to Generaloberst Beck Kaserne http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/heer-bios-beck.htm . A change I am very happy with.

I think it would be fair to say that the Bundeswehr had huge problems with the 20. July tradition for many years, exactly because many of the officers were the ones who fought on after that. When the conservative defense secretary pushed through the name change of the Sonthofen Kaserne, there was a lot of grumbling in the higher officers corps, IIRC.

Soldiers today have to swear an oath early in their service pledging to defend the state and democracy (with some democratic caveats, again a lesson learned from the 3rd Reich).

Hope that helped.

[Stoffel]

Isnt it true that there was a lot of resistance against the latest types of camouflage in the Bundeswehr by several civilian organisations because it look a lot like the old SS type camouflage?

[Amedeo]

Slightly OT...

Speaking of old traditions... is it true that during the '70s in the NVA were introduced distinctions between 'Prussian' and 'Saxon' regiments? I read this somewhere but couldn't find any serious proof.

Regards,

Amedeo

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stoffel:

Isnt it true that there was a lot of resistance against the latest types of camouflage in the Bundeswehr by several civilian organisations because it look a lot like the old SS type camouflage?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought these objections were levelled at Austrian camo patterns in the 70s/80s, which were very similar to SS pea pattern stuff - but you may be correct about the Flektar.

The German border guards continued to wear tan watter pattern for years and years, though this was a softened version of the Army splinter pattern and not used by the SS.

And to Germanboy, as always, fascinating stuff. I know that WW II vets wore miniatures of their wartime decorations on a conventional ribbon bar on their Bundeswehr uniforms; I am wondering if East German soldiers did the same?

The only German soldiers I've actually met (other than WW II vets) were musicians, when I was at the Nova Scotia Tattoo 10 years back. They were all draftees, big soft unkempt bearded men from the 1st Mountain Division who joined the band so they wouldn't have to fight. They wore polyester uniforms and seemed quite fun loving.

I would say that all their outward signs of tradition predated 1933; the mountain cap, the edelweiss, the collar patches, and especially the Jingling Johnny, which we were all enthralled by.

And man, those boys could play. American military bands tend to sound like high schoolers (not in terms of talent but in the music and instruments they play), but those Germans sounded MARTIAL. And every night when they cut loose with Deutschlandlied, it made the hair on one's neck stand up.

[ 07-15-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Los]

Interesting side story...

I was attending German Parachute (Luftlande) school near Altenstadt (I think the actual town was Schongau, shucks it's beena while.) back in the early nineties as the New German Camo was being rolled out. They were very much aware of the direct relation between the old Waffen SS stuff and the new stuff. I was goofing around with a leutnant:

"Sir, I really like your new camouflage. Where did you get the design from?"

"Oh well, you see, sattelite imagery was taken of central Europe during all seasons and a computer helped select the best possible camouflage for the job." He tells me all official-like.

"Ah yes, I see that makes sense. Funny how it looks like 'Waffen SS 1944 peas pattern camouflage."

The guy actualy gave me a wink and laughed as if I'd just been let into some secret club. "Yes it does, doesn't it."

And by the way at least at the airborne school, maintaining a direct link with WW2 traditionns was still in evidence. In fact every day I saw WW2 vets arrive at the bases pub where they would hang out with the soldiers and talk all night over a few beers. Had many ineteresting conversations myself.

Of course mosty of the guys I dealt with were long term porfesionals, NCOs and Officers, (Old school, hard-drinking, non black-turtle-neck-you-may-touch-my-monkey Germans.) These guys new all the old songs and would sing them when they could, not becasue they were nazis, but because of traddition. (and it was amazing everyone's Dad and Uncle was in this of that para regt in WW2 of this or that SS-Division. As far as the regular two year conscripts, they came and went. Though I was reminded of pre WW2 where the BW has a strong officer and NCO corps, very professional. And if they needed to ramp up it would not be a difficult process.

One other thing I do remember at the time at the German tank school, they had a garden walk way where there was a small stone depicting every German Panzer Division's insignia that you could walk through, a respectful schools reminder to the traditions of past elite armored formations. There was a big furor over the fact that they were gong to have all the Waffen-SS panzer units there too. It caused some stir at the time. Eventually they settled on one generic monument for all the Waffen SS units. It sort of looked like the 2SS div patch.

Anyway that was almost ten years ago.

Los

[argie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Innere Fuehrung is a concept that I seem to have forgotten most about but I believe it relates to the integration of the army in the democratic process, and the idea that no order given should be in contradiction to the laws governing society. So that if you as a grunt are ordered to do something illegal, you are within your rights to disobey the order. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the right to disobey a criminal order was in the German Military Code long time before WWII, but I haven't evidence to back up this... I read it somewhere a few years ago.

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by argie:

I think the right to disobey a criminal order was in the German Military Code long time before WWII, but I haven't evidence to back up this... I read it somewhere a few years ago.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can well imagine that there was - unlike in postwar Germany it was not really an option to disobey though, because you would have found yourself in a penal unit quite soon I am sure.

[Commissar]

Sure you can disobey an "illegal" order, but you'll have to pay the price especially if it's war time.

Why does the Bundeswehr still have conscription? During the Cold War, I can understand but why not an all volunteer force? Too little potential recruits?

I also heard they have a Erwin Rommel Panzer unit. Is this true??

[mike8g]

Commissar,

there are discussions running to drop the system of conscription of the BW. One reason to keep the current system is the link between the armed forces and the public that it provides. This way influences from the public will find its way into the BW and the conscripts will multiply their opinion and experiences back to their families, friends etc.

2) Don't know about a tank unit, but it's true for the Navy. Three anti-air-destroyers have historic names:

FGS Rommel

FGS Lütjens

FGS Mölders

Marcus

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Commissar:

Sure you can disobey an "illegal" order, but you'll have to pay the price especially if it's war time.

Why does the Bundeswehr still have conscription? During the Cold War, I can understand but why not an all volunteer force? Too little potential recruits?

I also heard they have a Erwin Rommel Panzer unit. Is this true??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Conscription is still there for two reasons, you can take your pick which one is the real one.

1. Conscription ensures that the army is an accepted institution and functions within civil society. The experience from the Weimar Republic should never be repeated.

2. Young men who object to serving in the army have to do 12 months of social service, for very little pay. A lot of the social system in Germany depends on this cheap labour, and many not-for-profit organisations and hospitals use them, as well as the emergency services. If you abolish conscription, you have to abolish this service as well, and that would raise the cost of the welfare state.

AFAIK there is no Erwin Rommel unit in Germany, all units are numbered, none are named, other than functional (Gebirgsjaeger, Panzergrenadier etc.). There is an Erwin Rommel Kaserne (barracks) though.

[Uedel]

"Innere Fuehrung"

Task of "inner Fuehrung" is to secure and oblige that the orders are getting fullfilled by the Soldiers in Command AND also secure the rights of the Individual Soldier.

To Law and Command´s

Every Soldier has the oblige to fullfill all Orders that are giving by a Soldier in Command at any time.

(in Command means a. due Rank or b. due a specific Role example here is Guard)

The Soldiers MUST obeye these orders even if they break the Law !!! Exclusion are Orders that Containing Crimes that are avenge (?) penaltys with Prison of minimum 1 Year.

So if i would command one of my submissioned soldiers to move on with a Car over a red Ample the Soldier must obeye my Order (but I got to Take the Response for this).

If i Order him to Get his Gun and rober that Bank or kill a Person he dont have to follow that Order because this would follow a Penalty with minimum 1 Year of Prison.

The Task of the Soldier is to decide is the Command a Crime pursuatet by a Prison Penalty of 1 Year worth or not. If not he got to follow that Order first and can later complain by a higher Officer etc.

That is roughly what i am learned in my 4 years in German Army about it and given here in English as best as i can.

As for the German Army in general i got to say that the Bundeswehr is a high modern Army with a good `esprit du corpse´ but due a lot of budget limitings the feeling getting worse.

As for remembering the "roots" there are huge differences all allong the whole Army, fractions living in Glorifications of the Wehrmacht (in the ex-Eastern Parts from the NVA they seem to be more of this) and others having the POV that the Bundeswehr is a complete NEW Army and has nothing to do with Wehrmacht.

The Broad mass of Bundeswehr Soldiers IMO are between the 2 POV´s we are a little proud about the performance of the Wehrmacht in WWII but also arguing and disliking the Nazi-part of it. And for sure most soldiers also dont keep Sympathizes for any Neo-Nazis in Germany and not else where in the World.

I think in General the Bundeswehr is like most of Germans a little distortianed about here History and with a little difficult "Nation-Pride".

At least in cold War the Russians still feared most the German Part of Nato (from a ex-Russian Soldier)

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Uedel:

So if i would command one of my submissioned soldiers to move on with a Car over a red Ample the Soldier must obeye my Order (but I got to Take the Response for this).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting - I was a driver, and one day a Corporal (Unteroffizier) told me when I drove him to the train station after his shift at the nuclear weapon stash that if he ordered me to run over a red light, I would have to do it. I told him I would not have to. He then said exactly what you said, and I left it at that, until I got back to the barracks, where I reported to my platoon leader, telling him about this 'interesting' opinion with my well-worn 'innocent bunny look'. He advised me that it was bollocks, and when I left the platoon office, he called the platoon leader of the Corporal in, and gave him a first-class seeing-to. What fun. My platoon leader was a senior NCO (Hauptfeldwebel) and the other guy a young Lieutenant, BTW.

The reason that in peacetime you can not order a driver over a red light is that it may cause an accident, in which case the driver would carry the can for any damage to things and persons. And that could well be manslaughter, and carry a criminal penalty. So it was explained to me.

Did my time 1988-89, Sicherungsstaffel 'S', JaboG34, Memmingerberg. Interestingly, our shoulder badge contained two 'S', but they were overlayed, so that it did not look like you know what...

[Mad Mike]

Just to clarify some things:

Any order which includes a crime as defined in the military(Wehrstrafgesetz) or civil(Strafgesetzbuch) penal code has to be rejected. The soldier has no choice to decide whether he wants to obey the order or not.

Orders that do not include an official purpose or violate the dignity of the human being (Menschenwürde) may not be obeyed. In these cases the soldier has the choice to obey the order or to reject it.

(Examples for the may-not orders:

Clean stuff or the toilets with a toothbrush

(against the dignity),

clean the private car of an officer (no official purpose))

My thoughts about the Redlight-crossing thing:

There may be some circumstances in which the soldier may have to follow the order(midnight, no other cars in sight). It depends on the specific situation and circumstances, so there is no way to give a general answer to this question.

[Andrew H.]

I've been in a lot of discussions with ex-BW soldiers -- mostly conscripts, but a couple of former Zeitsoldaten, too -- and it's sort of striking to me how often innere Fuehrung came up in conversation, particularly in light of the fact that I never really brought the subject up myself. I concluded from this that the concept seems to have really taken hold. Which is a good thing.

Probably a better example than running a red light (which, as Germanboy pointed out, can injure or kill someone) would be parking illegally, which can't. Also, if some soldier killed someone because he was "just following orders" to run the red light, it would be on the cover of Spiegel the following week and would be in the news for months. Yet another reason to avoid such orders.

Of course, if the BW is theoretically involved in a hypothetical future war, and the worst anyone can say about them is that they committed traffic infractions, they will have done well by innere Fuehrung. Even if the term sort of looks like it means that you should follow your "inner Fuehrer."

[Madmatt]

Moving to General Forum.