Iron Chef Sakai Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 i was wondering if rail guns will be an option in cmbb. i know if they are going to include a sevastapol scenario of some kind that without the heavy 800mm railguns such as "thor", the fortress city will be impossible to take, as such would have been the situation if not for the heavy shelling the city took by these monsters. though if included i think they should have a high rarity since they were not the easiest things to transport and set up. Thor actualy had a crew of 1500 men, and a general was in charge of it, yes of 1 single gun, kind of a waste in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 Rail guns could not fire fast enough to support a battalion in attack, but you could simulate a rail gun hit pregame just by throwing some rubble around and taking casualties on the units in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 As Slappy said, the rate of fire of these huge behemoths (Gustav & Thor) wouldn't make them the type of fire support weapon you would see for battalion-sized attacks. They existed to systematically destroy fortresses/cities rather than act as indirect fire support for ground attacks (to my knowledge). I'd say that it would be out of the question that they would be modelled physically in the game. As an off-map artillery resource for CMBB they would only be appropriately used in the 'pre-planned bombardment' role (that would take place on the first turn of a scenario/op-battle in CMBB or occur at fixed intervals). I don't know if there are any plans to include such guns in the 'Southern/Steppe Theater' for CMBB as off-map artillery resources, but it may be possible (much like the 14" naval guns were in CMB0 for certain months). [ 11-25-2001: Message edited by: Schrullenhaft ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 How long was the reload time for these rail guns? If it is 30 minutes or longer, surely their inclusion would be more of a time waster. There are very few scenarios that go beyond 60 turns of combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted November 25, 2001 Author Share Posted November 25, 2001 true, but you have ot admit, in game it would look impressive to see the damage that the largest guns ever built to this day could do on the eastern front. though i do agree with slapdragon. i can't wait for the game to come out, its going ot be a lot of fun. do you think the nkvd will be shooting at any russian units that panic and try to flee? imagine that in the game, hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 I think it should be modelled, but not as off board arty. The rail gun should actually be a unit on the board. That would give the railroad track tiles a function since Gustav could drive on them. If the gun depresses far enough it could even be used for a panicky direct-fire kiss of death shot at some attacking human wave. [ 11-25-2001: Message edited by: CMplayer ]</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CMplayer: I think it should be modelled, but not as off board arty. The rail gun should actually be a unit on the board. That would give the railroad track tiles a function since Thor could drive on them. If the gun depresses far enough it could even be used for a panicky direct-fire kiss of death shot at some attacking human wave.<hr></blockquote> LOL...eventually, a contribution worthy of this whole thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by M Hofbauer: LOL...eventually, a contribution worthy of this whole thread...<hr></blockquote> I'm not sure if I've been complimented or insulted. The glove is cast! Retract that or send us a setup, you scoundrel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 I like the name of that rail gun, Gustav. It sounds like something from the IKEA catalogue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryphon Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>i was wondering if rail guns will be an option in cmbb. i know if they are going to include a sevastapol scenario of some kind that without the heavy 800mm railguns such as "thor", the fortress city will be impossible to take, as such would have been the situation if not for the heavy shelling the city took by these monsters. though if included i think they should have a high rarity since they were not the easiest things to transport and set up. Thor actualy had a crew of 1500 men, and a general was in charge of it, yes of 1 single gun, kind of a waste in my opinion.<hr></blockquote> Thor wasn't exactly a railgun, it was a Karl-class self propelled 60cm mortar, the gun you are refering to is Gustav (Dora) it was huge, but had little tactical value. Though it is a very impressive construction, i am more eager to see how BTS codes the Sturmtiger, now that's a nasty thing with direct fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berkut Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 Dora could chuck 80cm shells around but required a lot of effort to use it. It had, I believe(I may be slightly off but not by much)a gun and rail carriage crew of around 500. It also had a battlion of infantry assigned to it as well as it's own AA defence units. It was fired around 48 times during the siege of sevastapol, with one shot penetrating an underground ammunition dump. It did however take an hour or more between reloads, so it would not be suitable for CM. The siegemortars like Thor would be more common and did not require as much time to load, so could be used as off-board arty, but it would be rare, like the heavy duty stuff for the allies. As a side note, Guderian also relates a tale in his memiors, when the gun was being tested. The designer anxious to please Hitler told him that it[|Dora]could be used as an anti-tank weapon, Guderian had an argument with the designer and got him to admit that he was wrong. As for it being fired at infantry as a last ditch defence, it would be pointless as it's lowest depression would still take the shell over the heads of the russkies to devastate some distant hill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Berkut: The siegemortars like Thor would be more common and did not require as much time to load, so could be used as off-board arty, but it would be rare, like the heavy duty stuff for the allies.<hr></blockquote> The 'thor' tracked siege-mortars weren't that common all, a few units only produced in total (if I was home I could look up how many were actually produced, but unfortunately I'm at work atm *GACK* - but I think it was roughly 2-5 in total). Mace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Berkut: Dora could chuck 80cm shells around but required a lot of effort to use it. It had, I believe(I may be slightly off but not by much)a gun and rail carriage crew of around 500. <hr></blockquote> It took 1,500 men 2.5 days just to set the bloody thing up. And this from the people who gave the world Blitzkreig! Talk about edifice-complex ... :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggDogg Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 You just can't have an east front game of Combat Mission without rail guns. :eek: They are, ... well, ... just necessary. You just need those 20 meter deep moon craters to hide in & protect you from future incoming 5000 pound shells. You know, lightning doesn't strike twice in the same place. :eek: So BTS, we need railguns. No, not the kind of rail guns in Quake. But we need the kind of rail guns that the Germans used on the eastern front & at the Dutch fortresses. You just can't have Combat Mission In The East without rail guns. Cheers, Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 I'd love to see Quaky rail guns in CMBB! That would make Finnish infantry more realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted November 26, 2001 Author Share Posted November 26, 2001 i realy need to start re reading what i type before i post. i meant the gustav in my earlier post, not thor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warphead Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 There were seven Karlgeräte in total. Thor was one of them. One was the prototype and six production models. All of them differed in number of roadwheels and other parts though. The barrel could be exchanged and the was a 60cm (Gerät 040) and a 54cm (Gerät 041) version. The "psychological effect" of the shells was highly praised. Apparently the actual damage done was mediocre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by CMplayer: I'm not sure if I've been complimented or insulted. The glove is cast! Retract that or send us a setup, you scoundrel!<hr></blockquote> actually, it was meant as sort of a compliment, because (I think) your original post had that cynic, ironic sting to it which ridiculed in a befitting way the whole birdbrain-idea of having a railgun in a CM-type battle. alas, I'm not the one to stomp onto a glove cast before me as if it was a still glowing cigarette-butt. And I also haven't had a PBEM for almost a year now. The only problem is that I currently am still moving, so my amount of commitment would be scarce during the next week incl. next weekend. If you can put up with that feel free to send me a setup. Nothing too big that my email server can't handle. Otherwise, I'm fine with any side, restrictions etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 Peashooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted November 26, 2001 Author Share Posted November 26, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Warphead-: There were seven Karlgeräte in total. Thor was one of them. One was the prototype and six production models. All of them differed in number of roadwheels and other parts though. The barrel could be exchanged and the was a 60cm (Gerät 040) and a 54cm (Gerät 041) version. The "psychological effect" of the shells was highly praised. Apparently the actual damage done was mediocre.<hr></blockquote> the actualy damge of a shell the size of a volkswagon mediocre? the guns were crucial in penetrating the heavily fortified city of sevastapol, convetional artillary would not have been able to dent alot of the bunkers there. he damage done from these guns was huge, when deployed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gredeker Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Iron Chef Sakai: the actualy damge of a shell the size of a volkswagon mediocre? the guns were crucial in penetrating the heavily fortified city of sevastapol, convetional artillary would not have been able to dent alot of the bunkers there. he damage done from these guns was huge, when deployed.<hr></blockquote> I think the question should be, mediocre in comparison to what? Compared to the number of smaller guns which could have been manned for the same manpower as this gun? Compared to the number of aircraft which could have been flown by equivalent manpower? Compared to the number of marks sunk into the project? Compared to using the steel to create this gun instead of another company of Tigers? (or most importantly)... Compared to the expectations of those who ordered the construction and employment of the gun? I don't think anyone is arguing that a rail gun shell causes less effect than a 150mm shell. The question is what it did in relation to what it was expected to do, and/or what else could have been done with the same amount of time/money/research/manpower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted November 26, 2001 Author Share Posted November 26, 2001 your missing my point, if you took the manpower, and in place of the massive railguns, had regualr artillary shelling the city, wich keep in my they did already have there, would hasve been bad. the rail guns were critical in taking sevastapol. the conventional artillary piece would not have been able to dent the soviet defenses in place there. sevastapol was not paris, it was a heavily fortified city. without the rail guns pummeling the heavy foritfications, the germans would not have been able to force the soviets inot a surrender there. the battle would have raged into a stalingrad type scenario, wich the germans most definetly could not afford, there for the rail guns indeed proved there worth in that particular battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Chef Sakai Posted November 26, 2001 Author Share Posted November 26, 2001 sevastapol was built up to withstand attack from heavy naval shelling keep in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by M Hofbauer: alas, I'm not the one to stomp onto a glove cast before me as if it was a still glowing cigarette-butt.<hr></blockquote> Good. Then have a look in your mailbox, where a nasty fight is awaiting you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen-x87H Posted November 26, 2001 Share Posted November 26, 2001 Holy sweet jesus! I wonder what the blast radius of that thing would be? Gen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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