Fighting Tigers...

[Trout]

Howdy,

I need some tips on fighting Tigers with Sherm 5s, Fireflies and Stuarts. Also, is it worth targeting them with 25pnd barrages? I have lots of arty and I'm wondering if they would blow a track or at least get them to button up. And... has anyone taken out a Tiger with a rear shot from a Daimler?

thanks

Trout

[jgdpzr]

Arty? Depends on how much you have and what you want to accomplish with it. It is very effective in buttoning them up so if you have enough to spare, calling down a fire mission and then opening up with AT assets is a sound tactic.

Regarding vulnerability to a Daimler from the rear, absolutely. The two pounder, like the US 37mm, can be lethal to the rear armor at very close range.

The key to engaging any of the German heavies is bringing in simultaneous fire from multiple angles. In most battles you should have the numerical advantage to do this.

Oh yes, one more thing, that 17 pounder on the Firefly will make short work of the Tiger's armor. Engage the Tiger first with other assets, and then bring up the Firefly in a good hull-down position and chances are the Tiger is toast.

[Herr Oberst]

Big gun. heavy armor, molasses-slow turret.

Take the Tiger from multiple angles. The wider the dispersion the better.

In a PBEM, I had a Veteran Tiger that took on 3 Allied tanks head to head. I came crawling up a hill to them, so first turn I had great hull down. Smoked one tank.

Next turn my opponent rushed his remaining two tanks, one on the right, one on the left.

Tiger calmly swung the barrel right, eventually got the Sherman V in his sights and blew it away at about 110 meters. In the meantime, the other Sherman 75 was closing in and the Tiger bounced 3 or 4 hits from that one. When the second Sherman finally pulled up to take a measured shot, he had a side view combined with a rear turret facing at around 75 meters. The Tigers turret swung around with agonizing slowness. Would my gamble pay off? Should I have reversed down the slope this turn rather than advancing slightly?

Seconds before the second Sherman fired off a seemingly guaranteed-kill shot, my panzerschrek team, sent in at a sprint as flank reinforcement, peeked around the corner of a cottage, and cranked its first shot at the massive broadside of the Sherman a scant 55 meters away. Crash, boom, one smoking Sherman and my Tiger lives for another turn. The schrek team must have royally pissed off the Sherman crew, for after bailing out, they eliminated the schrek team...

Truly one of the most suspenseful 1 minute replays I have had in all my CM gaming.

[Chad Harrison]

as was said above, the US 76mm can take out a tigers frontal armour without tung. rounds. the firefly can take it out any way you cut it. the only tanks that can not be taken out by a rear shot from at 37mm/40mm (about the same) is the king tiger or the jagd tiger (except for one heck of a lucky shoot, i tried this one in an experiement, it took over a 100 37mm HITS to finally bring her down!).

best tactic is to run one at an angle towards the beast, get that slow turret swinging, and then bring number two out in the opposite direction. that way, either one or the other will have a side turret/hull shot. its the king tigers that you really need to worry about . . .

[MikeyD]

You've had success with the 37mm gun against the TigerI's rear? I managed to get an M8 AC up to 10 yards from a TigerI rear and the rounds just bounced off! The Tiger lazily swung it's gun around and took its time blasting my poor AC to kingdom-come with one shot. A Panther, on the other hand, I've nailed from 300 meters with a 37mm shot to the rear.

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MikeyD:

You've had success with the 37mm gun against the TigerI's rear?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

dont get me wrong, your chances for succes are very slim and it wont happen every time. the tigers rear armor is as follows:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Turret: 80/0degrees

<LI>Upper Hull: 80/8degrees

<LI>Lower Hull: 80/8degrees

the stuarts/greyhound field the M6 L/54 37mm gun, with a velocity of 884 m/s. that gives it a penetration of 65mm at 100m and 0degrees slope. so according to this there is no chance, but ive pulled it off in numerous shots on a weak point. i just stay clear of them with the 37mm in games though. its too risky.

[JasonC]

Tigers aren't the same as Panthers. With Panthers, the trick is to hit them from the sides with any decent AT weapon. With Tigers, the trick is to hit them with any upgunned shooter - US 76mm on Shermans or tank destroyers, 90mm, Brits Fireflies, Challengers, or Comets.

The Tiger's strength is that even its side armor is still pretty thick, thick enough that straight 75mm guns (or zooks, usually) need to fire from an almost "square", 90 degree angle, and be fairly close in to boot. That way is possible, but risky and uncertain. What often happens is the side angle and the range combine to defeat the shot. But its armor is not so thick, front or sides, that 76mm guns can't get through it at decent combat ranges.

You don't have to razzle dazzle or suicide drive to close ranges. Distract the tank with anything (buttoning it up can also help) then hunt forward with an upgunned shooter from another angle (doesn't have to be wide, but wider means more time) and pop the beastie, and it will go down. It helps to have a full ID of the tank (no "?"), to ensure the right ammo type is used, if that matters.

The only case to worry about with an upgunned shooter (besides him shooting you first, obviously!), is the following. If you have only a US style 76mm gun (not 17 lber in other words), and you are facing the front armor plus a slanting angle, or the range is long (over 1000 yards), then you need tungsten. Otherwise T ammo is unnecessary, and usually it is easy enough to avoid that special case (just increase the angle and shoot from the side, or decrease it and shoot from the front, or wait for him to get closer if too far away).

This is different from the Panther. The Panther's front is harder to get through than the Tiger's, but its sides are weak enough for vanilla 75mm to tackle, even at range or with side angle included. So going for the flanks is the way to kill the Panthers, including the split up - two shooter approach others have described.

The traps or pitfalls of the two tanks differ. The way to get killed by a Panther is to try to tackle it from the front. The way to get killed by a Tiger is to try to tackle it without an improved AT gun, with just vanilla 75mms (regardless of the angle).

So, for the problem you presented, the key is to use the Fireflies carefully, stalking particular, spotted targets from behind cover, then repositioning/hiding again after a kill. They should do the killing, but they will need help from your other stuff to live long enough to do the job. In the form of bait, distractions, threats to the flanks from 75mms, smoke rounds, whatever it takes.

Expect to lose some of those "helpers". You will succeed anyway if you keep the Fireflies alive and working. If you lose a Firefly every time you go for a shot, you will probably run out of them before the other guy runs out of Tigers, and lose. If the Fireflies are get killed, you can try using your remaining vehicles as bait to draw the Tigers past PIATs or something, but don't try to tackle them directly.

[Sergeant Saunders]

I created a test scenario just for this type of thing:

2000 Meter map

1 KingTiger, Tiger1 & Panter. zero ammo.

All three set on edge of map in rubble facing edge of map.

3 Stuarts on opposite side of map. 150 AP.

Single command of Fast to rear of each german tank.

The Panther went up at about 500 meters.

The Tiger1 absorbed about 60 rounds from each stuart and finaly blew at about 30meters.

The KingTiger shed the rest of the stuarts ammo with only 3 casualties from spalling.

[dalem]

Best way to deal with a Tiger is to ignore it. In situations where they're impossible to ignore, then avoid them.

By the way, I'm not kidding.

-dale

[Commissar]

You'll notice as you get closer to the end of the war, the Tigers are not all that fearsome. Allied 76mm guns with tungsten can do a number on Tigers with frontal penetration shots not much of a problem. Panthers are a better choice in my opinion. They seem to have a better chance of surviving with the sloped armor.

If you are the allies, you will most likely outnumber the Germans in armor. Use one pair to engage the Tiger and force it to expose a vulnerable flank to you then use the other pair to hit that flank. Use terrain for cover and hull down positions as much as possible.

[Andrew H.]

One strategy for taking out a tiger (assuming a combination of upgunned and non-upgunned Allied tanks):

1. Have at least two tanks out of line of sight of the Tiger; say a stuart and a 76mm Sherm (or any non-upgunned plus upgunned tank). The non-upgunned tank should be in a location where the Tiger will have to rotate its turret to engage it.

2. Use MGs or light mortars to get the Tiger to button up. This will make it react to new threats more slowly.

3. Send the non-upgunned tank forward (Fast)on the Tiger's flank so that it will begin to rotate its turret to engage the non-upgunned tank.

4. At the same time, send the upgunned tank forward (Hunt), but time its move so that it will come into LOS of the Tiger when the Tiger has already rotated its turret to engage the Stuart or whatever the other tank is. (Obviously, it's easier to write this than to do it correctly. The Pause command helps. If the upgunned tank breaks cover to early, it will drive right into the Tiger's gun. If the upgunned tank is too slow, the Tiger may have already taken out the non-upgunned tank and rotated its turret back to face the upgunned tank when it breaks cover. Although the upgunned tank *may* be able to get off (one) first shot if the Tiger is buttoned and the upgunned tank is unbuttoned).

5. You need to hope that the Tiger doesn't have concealed AT assets or other flank protection when you try this. Otherwise, the stuart charges forward and is immediately taken out by an AT gun (or Schrek, or whatever), at which point the upgunned tank wanders into the Tiger's gunsights.