Bruno Weiss Posted January 20, 2001 Share Posted January 20, 2001 Terence wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Oh, and that's why we have the Super Pershing and the Puma, and couple hundred posts a week bleating about the Sturmtiger and the goddamn Brummbar.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Now now, it be "cottonpickin" while in public. Yep, what is the saying, "Wounds my heart with a monotonous languor." Couldn't agree with you more. Sometimes, I just pretend it's birds tweetering in a nest wanting another worm. Besides, I don't know what the devil BTS is going to actually do in CM2, I imagine their in the midst of figuring that out, and will be adding a bunch of fixes as well as new stuff. Current philosophy is suggest, they will decide. I also imagine BTS is making a mint off of the recycle paper. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 01-19-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted January 20, 2001 Share Posted January 20, 2001 Maybe someone has already written this, but I'm not in the mood to read all previous posts. I have no problems with women in CM - give me the possibility to see some without leaving the PC - but how should it improve the gameplay? ------------------ Keine Gefangenen! http://www.scipiobase.de/cm_mods.htm [This message has been edited by Scipio (edited 01-19-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 20, 2001 Share Posted January 20, 2001 LOL Scipio. I never thought of that aspect of it. Might provide a whole new reason to use the Churches. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankgirl Posted January 20, 2001 Author Share Posted January 20, 2001 Hi all, Yeah, i like the idea of maybe modifying some of the existing troops, it's good that you can do that and make .wav mods. I'll look into that later, when i get the full version. As far was the eastern front goes there seems to be real debate. I think they should be model personally, especially with some female troops. Besides it would add more interest to more people and could be consistent with the commitment to historical accuracy. --- "Snowpants are sexy!" http://www.geocities.com/wildhippychik/whp.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvet Posted January 20, 2001 Share Posted January 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Keith: I support the idea of having Partisans in CM2. The fact of the matter is that on the EF Partisans frequently coordinated their attacks closely with Russian Army attacks. For instance, during the 1941 Russian winter counter offensive there were several battles where partisans, parachutist, and calvarly all participated in the same battle simultaneously. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> When you said this it brought back a memory I had about playing just such a scenario in Squad Leader: Cross of Iron. It's been about 10-15 years since I played it, but I managed to find the old game. Sure enough, scenario 19 is the one I was thinking of. Here is the scenario intro: OKOROVOVO, February 17, 1942: Following the Russian winter counteroffensive, the Germans were forced to fall back to isolated pockets in an attempt to survive both the Russians and the weather. In teh resulting gaps, the Russians found useful employment for their cavalry in resupplying partisans. Occasionally, however, the Germans would sortie out from their pockets in an attempt to disrupt these Russian operations. On one such occasion, a recon element of the First Panzer Regiment broke up a planned partisan-cavalry operation, and frustrated their attempts to re-establish themselves in the town. The Russians reacted strongly and threw in the only immediately available reserve; an airborne drop by a battalion of the 204th Parachute Brigade. Soon the Germans found themselves in a wild melee with partisans, cavalry, and paratroopers. And the aftermath: Not surprisingly, the Russians had an exceptionally difficult time coordinating such vastly different troops and despite great gallantry by all concerned, the Germans were able to exploit their central position in the town and break up the isolated Russian attacks until an armored relief column arrived. Disheartened, the regular army formations broke off the attack and headed back for their own lines, while the partisans simply faded back into the woods. Now this proves both the points of those for and against the inclusion of partisans really. Such actions did take place between regular army Germans and Russian partisans, but I'm not sure it happened often enough to warrant inclusion in CM2. Personally I'd like to see everything included in CM2 that was historically involved in the eastern front, but this is the real world and that isn't possible. There have to be some things that don't make the cut in the end. Maybe instead of having special partisan units we could just use low quality rifle half squads or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvet Posted January 20, 2001 Share Posted January 20, 2001 Another tidbit of info about Russian women in WW2. The Soviets produced the only women of the war that became fighter plane aces. Lieutenant Lily Litvak got 7, and Lieutenant Katya Budanova got 6 credited kills. In addition, there was at least one fighter plane unit that was composed solely of women. [This message has been edited by Subvet (edited 01-20-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordfluffers Posted January 20, 2001 Share Posted January 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xavier: CM2 without Partisans!!! It sounds like CM1 without US troops to me ! You can simulate great Partisans/Resistance scenarii with CM... I'm actally testing in pbem "Plan Montagnard" a scenario about the combat in the Vercors mountains in France and it's really a different approach of tactical warfare! On the East Front there were huge partisans units. You can't ignore them!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> True, on the Eastern Front, partisan units of up to many thousands would attack German units then melt away into the Soviet interior. It was a very harsh war for partisans in occupied SU, high casualties, execution if captured and abject poverty coupled with Stalin's callousness to his own countrymen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordfluffers Posted January 20, 2001 Share Posted January 20, 2001 Firstly CM does not deal solely with front line engagements. Secondly partisans on the ETO often engaged well trained and well equipped enemy troops and were very successful generally, their success derived from their stealth, surprise and determination rather than their ability to match the Axis' firepower. Thirdly the lack of supplies forced many partisans to attack German units,particularly in winter, as a source of supplies. There success was compounded by the failure of German troops to deal with the severity of the Russian winter. Overall, partisans had a profound influence on the course of the war. CM2 without partisans would be CM2 without the T-34. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 20, 2001 Share Posted January 20, 2001 Personally I think CM2 will top CM by a long shot. Maybe they will add some of this stuff, I'd be the last to know. But I think it's pretty difficult to overlook CM's success, or argue in the end with the BTS judgement. I've tried, (some say sniveled and whined-yap yap yap) about this or that, and in the end most always found out it was something I didn't know, something I didn't understand, or something that was technically impossible. Which tells me that they "know" what they are doing, and maybe I should listen more and pontificate less. Besides, even I'm tiring of all the cockfights. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 01-20-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankgirl Posted January 23, 2001 Author Share Posted January 23, 2001 Hi Bruno, Well i agree that it is successful, but not because of commercial success, but because of their attention to historical detail and commitment to quality. I hope that is what ultimately guides their decisions. But it would be nice and seems like that it could fit there plans, as long as it's not to much trouble. --- "Snowpants are sexy!" http://www.geocities.com/wildhippychik/whp.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 A little off topic but does anyone know if we 'll have politic commissars (not sure about the translation )in CM2? And what would be their role in gaming terms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 I thought commisars were banned from the front line in November 1942 and for the rest of the war. Their inclusion in early war scenarios would be an interesting bit of chrome - including executions of "cowards" in the front line (assuming these reports have not been greatly exaggerated and such shootings did take place commonly). Partisans may have had a "profound effect" on the outcome of the war (something I find highly debatable) but it was at a strategic and operational level - not a tactical one. If its a choice of releasing CM2 earlier without them, my vote is for an earlier release date. If BTS has learned anything, it's that people who want stuff bad enough can make their own mods. Green Russian conscripts can be put into civilian clothes pretty easily by all the mod artists out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: I thought commisars were banned from the front line in November 1942 and for the rest of the war. Not sure... I just read a german veteran testimony in a review(39/45 Magazine). This soldier was in the 2nd PzDiv and he talks about operations against the partisans in 43 before and near Kursk. He also reports than in a ambush german killed 3 Politic commissars(he is talking about typical yellow insignas on the uniforms and on the caps). Their inclusion in early war scenarios would be an interesting bit of chrome - including executions of "cowards" in the front line I don't know exactly their role but may be we have to change our classical occidental vision of leadership for the russian troops. I mean the commissar may have a direct influence (good or bad ) on morale... If its a choice of releasing CM2 earlier without them, my vote is for an earlier release date. It's BTS choice... But we can have a discussion on this topic even if we don't know yet the answer If BTS has learned anything, it's that people who want stuff bad enough can make their own mods. Green Russian conscripts can be put into civilian clothes pretty easily by all the mod artists out there. I don't think it's just a question of mods. Partisans may have particular features ala Squad Leader (the boardgame) like poor or captured equipments, poor morale but quicker move in forest(by instance)... [This message has been edited by Xavier (edited 01-23-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted January 23, 2001 Share Posted January 23, 2001 Hiya Tankgirl. I don't have any problem with the suggestion, so long as it fits into the practices BTS has used "in the main" anyway, to make decisions on inclusion to CM. Historical authentication and authenticated scope of commonality. I don't believe they ever used those words, and I've yet to see them make a comment on my use of them, (more than likely they would just as soon I went somewhere else) , but those words describe what they have said all along and I believe they begin to describe a form of process. Can it (a proposal for inclusion), be verified as historically authentic, and can it be verified as having a scope of commonality enough so, that across a broad spectrum it was of such an occurrence and normality that it is applicable to the scope of CM? Otherwise, there are a lot of suggestions for inclusions that I personally find attractive, and I could add a few on the list myself, but which might be lacking of those preconditions to inclusion that could in my opinion anyway, open up the flood gates to all manner of things which would have a great many potential unforeseen and possibly undesirable end results. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 01-23-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 AAAAAaaaAAaAAAaaaaaaaaAaa!!!!!!! Enough of this already! Here! Click here: Tank Commander and here: Women and hamsters in combat together to see more. I guess the point here is that there's a lot of stuff in the game that can be changed on your own if you feel it should be included. Kitty ------------------ Hamsters at War! Chicks With Tanks Lorak's FTX "I'd rather the Bees than your Mask of Shame." - Stuka The True Blue Aussie Slang Source The Unofficial Vic Bitter Website [This message has been edited by Kitty (edited 01-23-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basebal351 Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Originally posted by Ales Dvorak: Partisans=terrorists? Germans burn down your house, kill your family and you became a terrorist! I see your point, but it doesn't tell the whole story of what kind of atrocious actions these partisans performed. Simple fact was, many of these partisans also stole from and killed their fellow Russians. How is that fighting for their country? Many of them were Soviets, fighting for their party. And in many cases, they were just as brutal, if not more so, than the invading German army. No heroism in that. I'd call them terrorists. Thanks, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basebal351 Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Hi! As far as women in CM2, I think it would be alright so long as their appearance would be extremely random, and extremely rare. But, then again, BTS didn't model black people in CM1. I think for them to model women, and not black people, would be discrimination, or something. Confused About Political Correctness, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 Originally posted by Basebal351: Hi! As far as women in CM2, I think it would be alright so long as their appearance would be extremely random, and extremely rare. But, then again, BTS didn't model black people in CM1. I think for them to model women, and not black people, would be discrimination, or something. Confused About Political Correctness, Jim I think it's about time this thread was locked. Unfortunately my key's not working...Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatt! MaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaatt? Kitty ------------------ Hamsters at War! Chicks With Tanks Lorak's FTX "I'd rather the Bees than your Mask of Shame." - Stuka The True Blue Aussie Slang Source The Unofficial Vic Bitter Website Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 24, 2001 Share Posted January 24, 2001 OK folks... sorry, only time to skim this one: 1. Yes, there will be Partisan units in CM. As most people appear to agree with, these units were a part of frontline combat in very large numbers. Unlike the bulk of activity in the West, they frequently engaged very large formations of German combat troops. Obviously they did as much hit and run as possible, but there were quite a few CM sized (company level) engagements. I don't expect this to be a big part of the game though. As interesting as this aspect of the Eastern Front is, it was militarily a sideshow compared to the frontline combat. 2. Female figures (pardon how silly that might sound ) will not be specifically supported in CM2. Mostly beacuse we don't have the capability to do it correctly (i.e. random figure here or there) with the current engine. Also note that we will not be specifically simulating the wide variety of ethnic/racial groups that made up the Red Army. This is the same as what we did for CM1. People can, of course, swap in female faces. Kitty can show you how 3. Commissars will be in CM2. At least that is the plan We have a fair idea how to put them in, along with NKVD troops. We are doing more research on this to sift out the myth from fact. Even had someone interview a Red Army vet and asked him about this stuff And yes, the Commissars did lose a lot of authority after 1942 (because most were idiots), but they did remain a part of the Red Army throughout the war. The ones parachuted behind the lines to "command" partisan units were not necessarily treated very nicely, BTW Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankgirl Posted January 25, 2001 Author Share Posted January 25, 2001 Hi all, Hey Kitty, great post with the mods. Women and Hamsters! How do you keep Richard Gere from hassling you? It's great to hear that Big Time will be including the partisans like so many of you agreed they should. And if we can mod the faces of some of the units that's really cool. So is it possible to do wavs that will be interspersed with male voices on the partisan side? I guess if you can do that , it pretty much covers it. --- "Snowpants are sexy!" http://www.geocities.com/wildhippychik/whp.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illo Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Originally posted by Ales Dvorak: Partisans=terrorists? Germans burn down your house, kill your family and you became a terrorist! Yes. Or maybe they dont burn anything and you become terrorist or partisan still. Everyone has their own reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aka PanzerLeader Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 but how should it improve the gameplay? Hah! Exactly my thoughts! Great minds think alike [This message has been edited by aka PanzerLeader (edited 01-24-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Originally posted by Tankgirl: Hey Kitty, great post with the mods. Women and Hamsters! How do you keep Richard Gere from hassling you? That's easy; I just don't make any gerbil mods . . . So is it possible to do wavs that will be interspersed with male voices on the partisan side? I guess if you can do that , it pretty much covers it. Here's what they (BTS) will probably say: "At this point we don't have any of the .wav files for CM2 at all as we are trying our best to complete and polish the other, more technologically complex aspects of the game first. We don't have any set plans for including female .wav files in CM2 but since the public seems to demand it, we're going to offer Kitty a large sum of money, a company car, company Lear jet, and a player to be named later if she'll record our female .wavs for us . . . either that or we'll just wait til she gets bored enough and makes a female sound mod for free." Kitty PS - I am available for above sound work at more realistic prices, btw. =) PPS - let's not hear any prostitution jokes, please ------------------ Hamsters at War! Chicks With Tanks Lorak's FTX "I'd rather the Bees than your Mask of Shame." - Stuka The True Blue Aussie Slang Source The Unofficial Vic Bitter Website [This message has been edited by Kitty (edited 01-24-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Hey Kitty I just checked your Women and Hamsters at War link and I must ask;are those really big hamsters or really small women? ------------------ Nicht Schiessen!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted January 25, 2001 Share Posted January 25, 2001 Originally posted by Splinty: Hey Kitty I just checked your Women and Hamsters at War link and I must ask;are those really big hamsters or really small women? You aren't in contact with women too much, are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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