Splitting units

[Scipio]

Will it be able to split a squad into something else then two half squads?

It would be fine if I could split out ONE group of three men for recon or split the squad in two halfes for...uhm...whatever

[offtaskagain]

For German squads especially, I'd like the ability to split off the LMG team to provide a fire base while the rifle section manuvers for an assault.

[BloodyBucket]

If I recall correctly, the official BTS word on this is that the squad is the base unit of CM and this will not change. That is, you can't get specific beyond splitting the squad, as this would soon get into the realm of tracking and directing individual soldiers.

If I don't recall correctly, I apologize in advance, but the above sounds right to my aging brain.

[David Aitken]

BloodyBucket is correct. According to Steve, the only reason you can split squads in the first place is for recon purposes, or to simulate a very thin line. Even this was not necessarily going to make the final cut, so don't expect anything more.

[Scipio]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BloodyBucket:

...as this would soon get into the realm of tracking and directing individual soldiers...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree, but that wasn't my idea. It also wasn't my idea to select special soldiers to split out. I only meant something like a 'send Recon group (~three men)' command.

[Username]

you can split a depleted unit cant you? Take a 7 man squad and split it and get a 3 man and a 4 man (hopefully with the MG)?

[Slapdragon]

Also, as a scenario designer, you can use a sharpshooter to represent a scout or sentry. For the Germans, if you want a special LMG team, just buy the LMG listed in the support column.

[MrSpkr]

There was a scenario pack on scouting a few months back. I'll see if I can find it.

One of the scenarios included several sharpshooters with zero ammunition for use as scouts. I found them to be extremely effective at locating and avoiding enemy units (I had one scout crawl along the edge of a woods containing an enemy squad (in foxhole) no more than five meters away without being detected.

Sharpshooters are extremely good at this sort of thing. In another scenario I am playing right now, I have had a sharpshooter hidden within 3m of enemy troops for about ten turns before an enemy platoon ran directly to his spot (at which point he stood up, capped a guy in the platoon HQ unit, then went down in a blaze of glory!)

Very useful critters, sharpshooters.

[Scipio]

Username, most squads are bigger!

Slap, have you read my second post? I do NOT want to split out a LMG

The idea to take sharpshooter as recon is the current practice, but I think ~20 or more points for ONE person is a bit expensive.

Maybe it would be a better idea if we could purchase a special recon/scout group - maybe 3 men with MPs?

[Slapdragon]

Having a "scout" unit in the game is not TO and E but was common practice in all armies, so perhaps it should be looked into, at least on the Western Front. I am not as familiar with scouting practices on the Eastern front.

[CMplayer]

On the topic of splitting squads, it

would be good if BTS would fix a minor

but important problem. You split a squad

which is in a heavy building, for example,

and suddenly half the squad starts the

next turn in open ground outside. This

aint right. As it is now, when you split,

one squad seems to stay where it is and

the other appears right next to it. They

should both be able to slide a little bit

to keep sharing the same cover. This is

not the same thing as the cover being too

small for two teams, btw.

--Rett

[Scipio]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer:

On the topic of splitting squads, it

would be good if BTS would fix a minor

but important problem. You split a squad

which is in a heavy building, for example,

and suddenly half the squad starts the

next turn in open ground outside. This

aint right. As it is now, when you split,

one squad seems to stay where it is and

the other appears right next to it. They

should both be able to slide a little bit

to keep sharing the same cover. This is

not the same thing as the cover being too

small for two teams, btw.

--Rett<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, a very good idea.

Slap, what means 'TO and E'?

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]

[Scipio]

:eek: Double posted

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]

[Chad Harrison]

to give my two bits on the original question, i think that it is currently modeled in a good way. yes it would be really nice to use the squad automatic weapon in a more flexible manner. yes it would be nice to have 2 man scout teams. but on the battlefield, how could a 2 man scout team off in the middle of no where report back "home" that two tanks were coming? :confused: how many radios can one squad carry? a small point, but i think this game point is well rounded as it stands.

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scipio:

Yes, a very good idea.

Slap, what means 'TO and E'?

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Scipio ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Table of Organization and Equipment.

Scout units were formed ad hoc by all armies in WW2, rather than being actual scout units. Recon units are different of course.

When virtual spotting comes in scouts will have a better time of it, since they will only be useful if they are in "command", that is they can yell "there is an MG up here guys".

Right now scouts wont be in place for CM:BO or CM:BB. This is an engine update.

[Scipio]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

When virtual spotting comes in scouts will have a better time of it, since they will only be useful if they are in "command", that is they can yell "there is an MG up here guys".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Virtual Spotting?

BTW, if a special Scout unit would only make sense when in command - what sense would it make to use a Sniper for recon/scout?

Even if CMBB is only an 'engine update', why not include a recon team as support unit? We will have hundreds of new units anyway.

Was it common in WW2 to have a special recon team? I don't know - but I guess it was and is anyway unusual that a commander can select his force!

[Slapdragon]

Scouts, as opposed to contact patrols, ranged out in front of a unit 50 to 100 meters and ran like hell / yelled their heads off if they saw anything. Scouting was not uncommon.

Currently, the game has borg spotting, which means that if one unit spots everyone spots. In reality, a scout would need to be "in command" that is in contact" with an HQ to be effective at getting information into the information chain. Virtual, or unit specific spotting would reduce this because units could not act on what they did not know, so a scout of of contact is exactly that, out of contact and worthless.

Unlike recon detachments at higher echelon, scouts are adhoc teams of from 1-6 men who move through areas of limited visibility looking for hiding enemies, ambushes, and the like. When not scouting, they go back to their units. Read "Slaughter House Five" and you will see an example of two soldiers considered "scouts" and called such, even though they were just plain jane infantry and acted like it. Just that when someone was needed to beat the bushes, they were called up out of their squads.

Snipers are not idea a scouts, merely a good stand in if you take their ammo away. While borg spotting makes them not so realistic, they are still better than nothing.

In the long run, most people will just use a 4 or 6 man half squad for scouting anyway, and since the engine cannot handle breaking out individual soldiers, even after the update it probably will not contain the ability to team out squads. It is just that you COULD design a "scout" unit armed with carbines or rifles for buchwacking -- it did not exist in the TO&E, but it was common enough to be feasible.

Note that most scouting is actually done as contact patrols which have 12 - 40 men.

[Scipio]

I'm a Borg queen - :cool: :cool: :cool:

Well, there's nothing left to discuss, the sense, pro and contra has been pointed out, and we will see what (or if) BTS will do with it.

[Andrew H.]

Given that squads at CM's level seemed to be made ad hoc from existing squads, perhaps the best approach would be to modify the current Split Squad command so that you would have Split Squad and Split Squad (Recon) commands. Regular split squads would not change. Recon split squads would "know" that they were recon units and would act accordingly -- seek to avoid firefights if at all possible, etc.

On the other hand, if recon units received special training or had special equipment(even if they were ad hoc units), maybe this should be reflected by having designated "Recon Platoons" or "Recon Squads" which would have special characteristics. I can imagine (and I really am imagining this, in the sense of making it up) that Recon Units would have some of the following characteristics:

(1) Slightly better spotting ability (because they are devoting all of their energy to spotting). I think that this needs to be kept within tight limits, though. Specifically, scouts should probably be able to hear a sound contact sooner than regular infantry. When regular infantry can hear a sound contact, recon squads should have a better idea where the sound contact is. I don't believe that recon squads should spot (i.e., visibly) units much before regular infantry, although maybe their identification of the type of unit should be more accurate. Possibly these bonuses should only apply when scouts are moving or sneaking or crawling or stationary. Perhaps the bonuses shouldn't apply at all, and the player just has to move the scouts slowly, or not at all, to get the inherent benefit of moving slowly.

(2) Perhaps scouts should be more lightly armed. One would think that you would leave the BAR behind, and perhaps some extra ammo. Maybe some scouts are just armed with carbines. Perhaps this permits them to move more quickly, or tire less quickly, at least in certain types of terrain.

(3) Scouts should seek to avoid combat as much as possible, perhaps firing (per the TacAI) only when they have been fired upon. To the extent that they are more lightly armed, they would probably have reduced firepower.

(4) Perhaps scouts should be harder to spot than other units because they are smaller units and they are trying to remain unseen.

(5) Scout leader bonuses should be biased toward the Stealth bonus and the Command bonus, for obvious reasons.

(6) Perhaps scout morale shouldn't suffer (much) when operating as split squads to reflect that they have been trained to operate while spread out. On the other hand, because scouts are intended to engage in heavy combat, their morale probably shouldn't be so super to begin with. They are supposed to run away.

[Valdor]

A historical note.

Doctrinally the WWII 12 man US Army Rifle Squad was organized into three sections:

* A 2 man scout section (ABLE)

* A 4 man fire section (BAKER)

* A 5 man maneuver and assault section (CHARLIE)

* (The 12th man is the Squad Leader)

Experience (and the fact that most squads were almost always under strength) caused many units to modify this in the field--a squad just did not have enough men or firepower to make it work against anything but very light resistance. Platoon and company level maneuver was much more common in most situations. But the basic scheme--scout, base of fire and assault elements--remained the same.

Experienced units ALWAYS used scouts!

Squad and platoon scouts generally operated fairly close to their parent units and communicated by voice, hand and arm signals, or actions (both of your scouts hitting the deck was usually a pretty good indication that something was up--as was their shooting at something!)

Scouts usually found the enemy the hard way--by being shot at! (What we used to call in the OPFOR 'Recon by Death')

BTW: Scouts at this level are actually conducting a security mission and not a recon mission (though recon is an inherent task in security operations.) Their job is more to prevent their squad/platoon from being surprised than to stealthily locate the enemy. Dedicated recon units or recon activities by standard units (patrols, taking prisoners, etc.) were supposed to develop the enemy situation before the attack!

Well, sorry for the lecture. Hopefully it was useful information.

[BloodyBucket]

My father told me that they ran a three man recon team, consisting of a BAR, SMG and a rifleman. The BAR was for long range shooting, the Thompson for security and the rifleman was sort of the guide. The men were selected as being suitable for the roles assigned, the goal being to eyeball German positions in static situations and shoot any targets that presented themselves unawares. Mortar crews and officers were favored targets, but my father said that anyone unlucky enough to be out of a hole at the time was selected (that is, stretching or relieving themselves. Ah, the glory of war).

He also related a story about a proper recon he was a member of prior to the Bulge. In response to reports of tank noises and troop buildup, division sent out a shiny G-2 major to take a look. Anouncing that he didn't see any Germans at the company CP, the major was told that the enemy were across the river. A patrol took the major across the river in a small boat, where he again announced he didn't see any Germans. Told that the Germans were several hundred yards further along, the major, outranking everyone else, ordered the patrol to return, much to the anger of the infantrymen. When inquiries as to the results of the patrol were made, the response was that the major had reported that the men were overtired and jumpy, and the Germans were making noises to spook them.

For security on a normal patrol or march, those who were new or in the bad graces of the officers or senior NCOs walked "point" and located the enemy. This duty was rotated as a way of sharing the danger, since contact usually meant death for the "scouts". One of the good points about being a BAR gunner, according to dad, was that you weren't asked to "scout".

[Freak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

Also, as a scenario designer, you can use a sharpshooter to represent a scout or sentry. For the Germans, if you want a special LMG team, just buy the LMG listed in the support column.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, I have always wondered what the consences was on using sharpshooters as scouts. What does the CM community think about it? Is it considered gamey? Or is it accepted as a scouting party?

Any comments?

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freak:

Ah, I have always wondered what the consences was on using sharpshooters as scouts. What does the CM community think about it? Is it considered gamey? Or is it accepted as a scouting party?

Any comments?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While you're ought it, what about leading

with a german lmg team a few tiles ahead

of an infantry platoon in heavy cover?

--Rett

[David Aitken]

You say: I want a scout unit!!

Search engine says:

Scouts

Recon Units and Spotting

Recon units in CM missing

Who uses scouts? Everyone except me?