Valdor

Large caliber air defense guns (used in the air defense role) did not attempt to score direct hits against bombers. They used high explosive rounds whose fuzes were set to burst at the same altitude as the bomber formation and shrapnel was the main kill mechanism--bunches of guns firing bunches of air burst rounds producing bunches and bunches of shrapnel were bound to hit something in a tight bomber formation flying straight, level and (relatively) slow! (If you watch any of the old bomber movies, the black puffs of smoke over the target are large caliber air bursts.) Needless to say, a few guns deployed in an AT role had very little chance of hitting a lone, small, nimble, fast fighter--who would probably be very angry if you actually shot at him

A historical note. Doctrinally the WWII 12 man US Army Rifle Squad was organized into three sections: * A 2 man scout section (ABLE) * A 4 man fire section (BAKER) * A 5 man maneuver and assault section (CHARLIE) * (The 12th man is the Squad Leader) Experience (and the fact that most squads were almost always under strength) caused many units to modify this in the field--a squad just did not have enough men or firepower to make it work against anything but very light resistance. Platoon and company level maneuver was much more common in most situations. But the basic scheme--scout, base of fire and assault elements--remained the same. Experienced units ALWAYS used scouts! Squad and platoon scouts generally operated fairly close to their parent units and communicated by voice, hand and arm signals, or actions (both of your scouts hitting the deck was usually a pretty good indication that something was up--as was their shooting at something!) Scouts usually found the enemy the hard way--by being shot at! (What we used to call in the OPFOR 'Recon by Death') BTW: Scouts at this level are actually conducting a security mission and not a recon mission (though recon is an inherent task in security operations.) Their job is more to prevent their squad/platoon from being surprised than to stealthily locate the enemy. Dedicated recon units or recon activities by standard units (patrols, taking prisoners, etc.) were supposed to develop the enemy situation before the attack! Well, sorry for the lecture. Hopefully it was useful information.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Berlichtingen: You're joking, right? 1) There is absolutely no reliable evidense that anyone was fully warned about Pearl Harbor 2) MacA had nothing what-so-ever to do with Pearl Harbor 3) His bombers weren't at Pearl Harbor... thus, they couldn't have been destroyed on the ground during the attack 4) The responsibility for the disaster at Pearl Harbor rests entirely on the Navy's shoulders<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Although I don't agree with his selection, YECoyote makes a few valid (if possibly poorly stated) historical points. 1, 2 & 3) I think the point he was trying to make is that MacArthur's aircraft were destroyed on the ground--mostly parked wing tip to wing tip--several hours after the Pearl Harbor attack. Warplans clearly called for him to launch bombing attacks against specific targets immediately after the Japanese commenced hostilities. At the very least, he should have had his fighters flying CAP over his airfields and other facilities. (After reading several more posts I realize several other people pointed this out. Sorry for the redundancy.) 4) The Army had complete and sole responsability for the local defense of Hawaii. Most of the histories of the Pacific campaign in WWII discuss both these cases. I would particularly recommend 'The Two-Ocean War' by Samuel Elliot Morison who is pretty much considered the authority on U.S. Navy actions during the war. (He also wrote the 15 volume 'History of the United States Naval Operations in World War II.) [ 07-10-2001: Message edited by: Valdor ]

Actually, based on my many years of experience as a tanker, I can tell you that the biggest killers of tanks are.... MECHANICS On a more serious note, the preferred aircraft weapon against tanks in WWII were rockets. Also, jpinard is right about the back deck armor on tanks usually being pretty weak. Even on an M1A1 there are points (like over the batteries) that can be penetrated by 7.62mm fire and almost all of it can be penetrated by concentrated 12.7/.50 cal fire. ------------------ "Battle is the ultimate to which the whole life's labor of an officer should be directed. He may live to the age of retirement without seeing a battle; still, he must always be getting ready fot it exactly as if he knew the hour of the day it is to break upon him. And then, whether it come late or early, he must be willing to fight---he must fight!" General Charles F. Smith, US Army (circa 1862)

Just pump a few more rounds into them---they'll brew-up eventually. ------------------ "Battle is the ultimate to which the whole life's labor of an officer should be directed. He may live to the age of retirement without seeing a battle; still, he must always be getting ready fot it exactly as if he knew the hour of the day it is to break upon him. And then, whether it come late or early, he must be willing to fight---he must fight!" General Charles F. Smith, US Army (circa 1862)

I don't think the objection is to recon, or even doing recon with jeeps---the objection is Jeeps reconning using constant fast movement. Recon is usually a stealthy affair using cover and concealment as much as possible and fast dashes between cover when needed. As Grognerd_Fogman pointed out (even though he was making the opposite argument), Fionn had "half-squads out there in the open running from cover to cover" (emphasis added.) ------------------ A66 1st MRB

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Capt. Toleran: Does anyone know what kind of tanks they used in "Patton"? I was watching it the other day, and the American tanks didn't look like Shermans, and the German tanks looked more like some kind of Leopard tank or something like that. Grognards?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If I remember correctly (it's been a while), the German tanks are US M48s and the US tanks are US M47s or US M41s. ------------------ A66 1st MRB

It has an upper hull (were the gun is) and a lower hull. If the gun can fire at enemy targets it is exposed and it, and the upper hull, can be hit. If it is in full defilade it cannot be hit---but it also cannot fire at an enemy target. ------------------ A66 1st MRB

Having spent a fair amount of time running around Germany in a jeep I can tell you it wouldn't work in real life. Although CM's 3D replication of terrain is very well done, it does leave a lot out. In real life there are lots of obstuctions that would bring your jeep to a screeching halt---which would be followed very quickly by it's destruction! Most roads have drainage ditches along their sides (perfect anti-jeep ditches!); there are miles and miles of fences and small walls; holes, rocks, deadfall (logs, branches, etc.) and even plowed feels (try driving a jeep more than a few miles an hour across the 'grain' of a plowed field) are all serious obstructions, not to mention soft, mucky, jeep-swallowing bogs! Also, in CM you automatically see whatever your units see---imagine in real life trying to plot all this information on a map and calling in spot reports on the radio while bouncing around in a jeep moving erratically (to avoid machine gun fire!) cross country at 30-40 mph! Good Luck. At the NTC we had a Recon Company commander who would often brief, "Sir, about 0200 I'm going to haul-ass down East Range Road---even if they're awake, they'll never be able to hit me!" About the only time he didn't get shot was when he hit a minefield, concentina, or other obstruction. (See, even the OPFOR can do some pretty stupid things!)

Most smoke rounds in WWII were white phosphorus (WP or 'willy pete') which had a tremendous casualty producing effect against infantry. There is a very good statement by Patton in Sicily that 4.2" mortars firing WP were much more effective than 105mm HE and that the Germans were terrified of WP. Of course, I have no idea how CM models this, as I am waiting for the full game to be delivered and have only played the Demo (I figure I should get CM about the same time as my pre-order of BG2. I'll have to give up either sleep or work---or both! ) ------------------ A66 1st MRB

I agree with Airborne about 'Panzer Commander' and 'Panzer Battles'---both are great books written from a very different viewpoint (tactical vs operational.) On the American side I would add, when you get a chance: 'Patton: Ordeal and Triumph' by Farago (the definative bio on Patton); 'Company Commander' (an autobiography) and 'A Time for Trumpets' (about the Bulge) by MacDonald; and 'The Men of Company K' by Leinbaugh and Campbell (as they describe the book: 'the autobiography of a WWII Rifle Company'.) ------------------ A66 1st MRB [This message has been edited by Valdor (edited 09-14-2000).]

I agree with Airborne about 'Panzer Commander' and 'Panzer Battles'---both are great books written from a very different viewpoint (tactical vs operational.) On the American side I would add, when you get a chance: 'Patton: Ordeal and Triumph' by Farago (the definative bio on Patton); 'Company Commander' (and autobiography) and 'A Time for Trumpets' (about the Bulge) by MacDonald; and 'The Men of Company K' by Leinbaugh and Campbell (as they describe the book: 'the autobiography of a WWII Rifle Company'.) ------------------ A66 1st MRB

I was in 1st MRB in the late '80s. 106A, T72. (Thank God---instant gratification, pull the trigger and something dies [or you miss] immediately. No tracking the target for an eternity for an AT-3 shot or plinking away with that useless 73mm! ) ------------------ A66 1st MRB

Actually, I thought the highlight of the Patton Museum (Other than MG Rose's helmet full of 9mm holes) was the prototype US T28 Full Tracked Super Heavy Tank (actually an assualt gun) with a long 105mm cannon, massive armor and FOUR tracks (one inboard and one outboard on each side!) This monster was designed for piercing the vaunted Siegfried Line but the war ended before they were put into production and only two were built. ------------------ A66 1st MRB

Some speakers have a headphone jack on the speaker---plugging in the headphones disconnects the speakers. Or you could get a Speaker A/B switch from Radio Shack (or other electronics store)---plug the switch into your sound card and your speakers and headphones into the switch. That way you don't have to reach behind your computer every time you want to switch between speakers and headphones. You could also get a 'Y' cable and connect both speakers and headphones and just turn-down the speakers when you are using the headphones. ------------------ A66 1st MRB

My following comments are based on 24 rotations as an OPFOR Motorized Rifle Battalion (MRB) Commander at the Army's National Training Center. Would you know the exact training/experience* levels of enemy units with limited observation---of course not. However, with experience, you can very quickly get a generally good idea about the training/experience (and even morale) level of your enemy. For example, with enemy tanks I would look to see (among other things) if the TC positioned the tank in an effective hasty fighting position when it stopped and if the gunner immediately started scanning his sector. With Bradleys I would also look to see if they erected their TOW launcher after stopping (most don't!) For infantry I would look to see if they quickly exited the carrier after stopping and if they quickly took-up firing positions or just milled around (waiting for their officer or NCO to tell them what to do.) Maintaining dispersion and properly placing their SAWs/MGs and Dragon ATGMs were also good indicators (most poorly trained units treat SAWs & MGs as just big rifles!) Naturally, you can't see things like these in CM---but your virtual NCOs and officers could. (But, with some experience, I bet most of us have a good idea of the ability of a human player just a few turns after initial contact!) Ideally, in CM, the accuracy of this info would depend on your own units level---green units would have a large error factor in determining the enemy level while elite troops would have very little. Also, the accuracy would increase over time. *Training vs Experience: Actually these are two very different factors---you could be well trained with little actual combat experience (ie., US Army in Desert Storm) or very experienced with poor training (many Iraqi units had a lot of experience fighting Iran but were, by comparison, poorly trained.) ------------------ A66 1st MRB

Yes, in the later issues they got upgraded to a Sherman---but I could never (even as a kid) accept JEB Stuart haunting a tank named after General Sherman! Besides, their exploits are only SLIGHTLY more believable in a Sherman Also, I forgot to list a critical capability: --Sink German U-boats while lashed-down to the deck of a Liberty ship! BTW: My favorite DC war comic was probably 'Gunner & Sarge' ------------------ A66 1st MRB

CM is missing probably the most important US tank variant there is---the fabled 'Haunted Tank' Stuart variant! For those unfamiliar with this novel variant (of which only one was produced) here are some of the more important features: --37mm cannon that can blow the turret off a Panther or King Tiger---frontal aspect---with ONE shot! --.50 cal Machine Gun that can shoot down ME-109s and Stukas with a 5 round burst everytime! --Armor that will deflect ANY German tank round from any angle! --Any mine will cause only basic damage to one track---which the crew can repair in minutes! --Finally (and this is the best part), the tank is haunted by the ghost of JEB Stuart who frequently warns the crew of coming danger and helps them out of really tight spots. The only real threat to the US 'Haunted Tank' was the German haunted tank---a blood red tiger haunted by (who else?) Attila the Hun! Hopefully they can fix this glaring omission in an upcoming patch! ------------------ A66 1st MRB [This message has been edited by Valdor (edited 09-10-2000).]

The technical term we use in the simulation community is 'stochastic'---ie., everyone is at the mercy of the virtual computer dice ------------------ A66 1st MRB

Muzzle brakes reduce recoil (the muzzle brake on an M109 howitzer reduces the recoil some 40-45%). Exiting propellant gasses strike the muzzle brake thus reducing recoil. Most (but not all) muzzle brakes also attempt to reduce the firing signature by directing gasses to the sides and away from the ground (throws up less dust and dirt.) ------------------ A66 1st MRB

What Firing Unit/Target Unit set is the info PH based on? (ie. Stationary firing unit versus stationary, fully exposed, head-on target [sSEH in Janus] or stationary firing unit versus stationary, fully exposed, flank target [sSEF in Janus]) ------------------ A66 1st MRB

Great---now I really feel like a part of the board. When do I get to meet '7 of 9' ------------------ A66 1st MRB [This message has been edited by Valdor (edited 09-09-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KiloIndiaAlpha: Valdor, This is a long-shot, but do I know you? I was involved in UE 98-1 from the UK side of things and spent a lot of time at JTASC. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry, no Recently retired (US Army armor officer) and now I'm a database manager for two tactical level simulations (Janus & JCATS) at one of the US Army's combat arms schools. It's a hard job, playing computer games for a living, but somebody's got to do it ------------------ A66 1st MRB [This message has been edited by Valdor (edited 09-09-2000).]

Probably the most realistic solution would be for a unit in ambush mode not to fire if spotted but to return fire if engaged. I can't imagine any crew, no matter how well trained or disciplined, sitting there while under effective fire. Also, a burning M10 gives away an ambush just as much (if not more) than an M10 returning fire. ------------------ A66 1st MRB

Downloaded the demo yesterday, played 1 mission, ordered the game. What can I say---great job! (Now all I have to do is wait while I replay the demo scenarios about a dozen times each.) My questions: 1. When you select a several units and assign them a route can you assign waypoints (so far I've only been able to assign a single leg)? 2. In the actual game (not the demo) is there a campaign mode? Again, great game! ------------------ A66 1st MRB