The Commissar Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 OK, this is mostly a gameplay request, although it does have historical backing. It really annoys me how the "Medium" troops quality includes only the Regulars and the Veterans. I think this should be expanded a bit to include Greens. Why? More options, of course, and also more ways to use your forces, allowing for more diversity in QB PBEM games and TCP/IP matches. As it stands now, tp purchase Green troops, I have to use the "Low" troop quality, which only allows me to use crappy Conscripts alongside the Greens. I think the Greens belong in the Medium range as well as the low range. They were common troops, after all, on the Eastern front especially. On a historical note, this also makes sence. Usually, the so called "Medium" combat units had a wide diversity of proffesionalism amongst them. Some were brand new, wet behind the ears recruits, some were those who had managed to survive a few battles and have the basics down pat, and still others who were hardened, bloodied, and more experienced in war. Seems "right" to me, what do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 Agree completely, T.C. I also think veterans belong in the higher quality group. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 I agree. Also I'd like to see "unlimited" in Quickbattles. Widened as you suggest is better than nothing, of course. From my playing so far, the different experience levels in CMBO didn't add as much gameplay value as I would assume. To make some fun out of it, we should be able to get that two crack Hellcats with the Green Sherman Platoon and regular Rifle company. Maybe that could be coupled with the rarity system. And I'd like to see mixed Companies. Best served cold, in a quickbattle you know when in setup, but not earlier whether you got veteran Bazookas in a exchange for a green platoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted October 20, 2001 Author Share Posted October 20, 2001 I think redwolf is up to something here when it comes to randomizing the make ups of a company (or platoon, or batallion). I think this could be used to represent the effects of battle very well. Unless you buy either of the two extremes (Conscript or Elite), some of your squads will be of higher or lower experience level. Say you buy a Regular company. While the majority of the squads in the 3 platoons will indeed be Regulars, maybe a few will be Green (to represent replacements getting thrown in) and some Vets (to represent a few die hards present). The reason I said it might not be good to do this for Elites or Conscripts is because each of them represents the extreme. A conscript is a guy thrown into battle not only without preperation, but also without previous battle experience. Likewise, the Elite are those special few men who have reached the pinacle of excellence. Everyone lesser is rooted out. Thanks for the ideas, Redwolf. EDIT: Just wanted to add that IMHO, the best scenario designers are the ones who perform the method I described above, and have platoons and companies have slight variations in experience. Makes for a much more interesting match up. I fondly remember battles where I would be holding the important objective with that one Vet squad from my Reg platoon.. [ 10-19-2001: Message edited by: The Commissar ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 I believe in CMBB "regular" will include green and reg, "veteran" will include reg, crack, and elite. I heard Steve mention something along these lines a few months back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted October 20, 2001 Author Share Posted October 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzer Leader: "veteran" will include reg, crack, and elite.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> How curious. Why would it go from Reg to Crack and Elite? What ever happent to Vet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 Doh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Johnson-- Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 For you information guys, CMBB will have some cool sort of randomization of infantry formations. Just click the option button before you buy your troops for 10%, 25% or 50% and when you get into the game you will see your company missing a few squads or a few platoons to represent battle damage. Not sure if we can use it in pre-made scenarios yet, we might have to go that manually, but our QBs should have some more randomness to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 I hadn't heard that! Have you got a link to the thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 IIRC, Steve has said that medium quality for QBs in CM2 will be green and regular, rather than regular and vet. Although I agree this is a more realistic mix, from a pure game-play perspective I'm not overly thrilled with it. The reason being that I doubt there will be as many people who use greens as there are who use veterans. As it is, there is a pretty good mix of players who prefer vets or regs or some combination. I'm afraid greens will be a rare choice, making most QBs all-reg battles. Bleh. I hope I'm wrong. A curious by-product of this is that the low quality category will have only one option, conscript, while the high quality category will have three. Unless BTS is doing something more than what they have said... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by redwolf: And I'd like to see mixed Companies. Best served cold, in a quickbattle you know when in setup, but not earlier whether you got veteran Bazookas in a exchange for a green platoon.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is an interesting idea. I'm not sure how it would work in practice, however. The problem I see is that is would mess up the points total. Each player would buy 2000 pts of stuff for a 2000 pt ME (for example), but due to randomization of expirience one player may actually end up with more than 2000 pts and the other somewhat less. Assuming I understand what you're saying. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Mr. Johnson: For you information guys, CMBB will have some cool sort of randomization of infantry formations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is news to me as well. [ 10-20-2001: Message edited by: Vanir Ausf B ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 I have been lobbying for this change since the first day CM came out. I really think we need an "unlimed" option to this just as we have that option for force mixes. For the CM "gamers", think of the added strategy in composing your infantry forces before battles...At the very least, I think we should have 4 types per category. Category 1: Conscripts, Greens, Regs, and Vets. Category 2: Greens, Regs, Vets, and Crack. Category 3: Regs, Vets, Crack, and Elite. I still think an "unlimited" option would be the best and I'm sure there is enough realism in that to justify it's inclusion in CMBB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmatt Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 The feature that Mr. Johnson spoke of will indeed be in CMBB but he has some of the details a little mixed up. Although I cant really comment on it now, I will be going over this feature thoroughly, hopefully in the near future here. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted October 20, 2001 Author Share Posted October 20, 2001 For all those who missed it: Yay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 21, 2001 Share Posted October 21, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: For the CM "gamers", think of the added strategy in composing your infantry forces before battles...At the very least, I think we should have 4 types per category. Category 1: Conscripts, Greens, Regs, and Vets. Category 2: Greens, Regs, Vets, and Crack. Category 3: Regs, Vets, Crack, and Elite. I still think an "unlimited" option would be the best and I'm sure there is enough realism in that to justify it's inclusion in CMBB.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Just to keep the discussion going, I think four types per category are too many. I prefer three. My nominations would be: <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Category 1: conscript, green, regular. <LI>Category 2: green, regular, veteran. <LI>Category 3: veteran, crack, elite. This seems to me to give a reasonable range of experience to be found within a given formation on the CM scale. I would also favor having an unlimited option available as well. Michael [ 10-20-2001: Message edited by: Michael emrys ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arax3 Posted October 21, 2001 Share Posted October 21, 2001 Bravo Redwolf!! IMHO this will accord with IRL! My dad was a combat officer in WWII on the Western front and this practice will accord with his experience as related to me. Arax3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted October 21, 2001 Author Share Posted October 21, 2001 I agree with Michael. The three categories he presented seem to be quite balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted October 21, 2001 Share Posted October 21, 2001 I'll 3rd Michael's idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Johnson-- Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 bumpski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys: Just to keep the discussion going, I think four types per category are too many. I prefer three. My nominations would be: <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Category 1: conscript, green, regular. <LI>Category 2: green, regular, veteran. <LI>Category 3: veteran, crack, elite. This seems to me to give a reasonable range of experience to be found within a given formation on the CM scale. I would also favor having an unlimited option available as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The reason I'd like to at least have 4 types of experience levels is that with only 3 levels, you aren't really getting that much of a difference when you go to choose units. Adding that fourth level in there, it changes everything and more thought has to go into your strategy for the battle. If you had regs, vets, and cracks, that would be okay but the other categories that Michael mentioned don't really have that much difference in them. I mean, how much difference is there between conscripts and greens. The question is, how unrealistic is it to have say...greens, regs, vets, and cracks in a battle together. If it isn't unrealistic, then why not have at least 4 levels to choose from? Whatever BTS decides to choose, I hope they include the unlimited option as it always makes everybody happy in the end. [ 10-21-2001: Message edited by: Colonel_Deadmarsh ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 Well, my thinking on this matter revolves around the fact that the largest force in CM is a reinforced battalion, more or less. It seems to me that units that small would be somewhat homogenous. Not that there wouldn't be a range of differences across the unit, but that compared to the differences between divisions, that range would be fairly limited. YMMV, but I just find it a bit of a stretch to imagine squads of greens and cracks in the same battalion. In the case of individuals, yes, but not whole squads. Over to you, Colonel. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Johnson-- Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 We would make the indivduals in the squad mixed if we could. But we have to think of a squad's experiance as an average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanns Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colonel_Deadmarsh: [QB]I have been lobbying for this change since the first day CM came out. I really think we need an "unlimed" option [QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> How does this option work? Does it get rid of all British troops in the scenario? Or just make them into Canadians or maybe Australians? If you used the "unlimeyed" option with Green troops would they be Kiwis? Wait as sec, never mind. I guess it's a typo or somefink Hanns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Uber General Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 Firstly, forgive me if this is dumb - I've only played the demo and this is my first post here A good argument for having all levels available would be because you may have a large green/cpnscript force taking on a small crack force, no? As I said, forgive me if that is dumb, I don't completely understand the context of the issue, I dont know if you select a level and it effects BOTH sides or just one side. Yours, SUG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted October 22, 2001 Share Posted October 22, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys: [QB]Well, my thinking on this matter revolves around the fact that the largest force in CM is a reinforced battalion, more or less. It seems to me that units that small would be somewhat homogenous. Not that there wouldn't be a range of differences across the unit, but that compared to the differences between divisions, that range would be fairly limited. YMMV, but I just find it a bit of a stretch to imagine squads of greens and cracks in the same battalion. In the case of individuals, yes, but not whole squads. /QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I wouldn't want to fix elverything. I would like to have a green/regular infantry battalion reinforced by some crack tank destroyers. Units coming into the battle in an accidential mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts