AT guns too easy to destroy?

[Knaust]

I think that AT guns are too easy to destroy. For example, in a recent game of mine my 75 AT gun started a duel with 4 Shermans at 500mts (err…I was in a desperate situation).

Result:

- AT gun shoots and misses

- AT gun shoots and knocks down 1 Sherman

- 2 HE rounds from Shermans near the AT gun (<5mts), AT gun pinned

- Shermans go on pounding the AT gun position

- after 40 secs from start of duel AT gun knocked out

Well I think that AT guns are too easily targeted!

This will certainly impair the German tactics used in The Western Desert or Operation Barbarossa, using 88 AA guns in the rear to counter Matilda’s or T34’s,KVI’s.

:eek:

[Guest Babra]

500m is damn close. If it had been 1500m those Shermans would be having fits.

[Fox]

My problem is the AI...when i am the attacker and they have AT guns..all i get is a big "?" that there's a gun somewhere....it is nearly always far enuf away from that local that an arty call at a location u think might hide the gun often proves fruitless with either a "target wide" or not was given...however...if U have the AT guns and they are attacking ur position...as soon as u fire ONE SHOT...1273645 LOS's appear and ur gun is toast..unless the only thing in site is the tank and u get it first..but rest assured...within a couple of minutes, an arty barrage is definately comin and it knows EXACTLY where the gun is...guess the AI has no idea what a "?" is lol....this happens even if the enemy is still at the very edge of the map hehe..still..best wargame i ever played as i still play almost daily since i got it last year

FK

[StugIII]

I agree with Babra, too close for the AT's. One of the big advantages for the AT's was firing from a well Camo'ed position at the near far end of the guns effective range (depending on target type). The 75's and under, especially the PAK 40's, were very easy to conceal due to thier size.

A good crew could would be able to get off numerous, unhurried, shots before being located.

Once located I'd say the game probably simulates the results fairly well :eek:

[ParaBellum]

Actually this sounds pretty realistic to me.

AT guns are VERY vulnerable to direct fire HE, which is as it should be.

I read a lot accounts of tanks destroying AT guns fairly easily ONCE THEY SPOTTED THEM!

That's the trick. Hide, open fire, knock out a tank, hide. When in good cover, the enemy will not know what hit him.

Of course, when engaging 4 enemy tanks at relative short range the survival chance of the AT guns is pretty small... BTW were the enemy tanks unbuttoned?

I recall german tanks in russia had little problems with lone AT guns facing their tanks, things changed once the soviets started to use their AT guns in so-called "PAK fronts".

I like to lure enemy armor into firefights with my tanks, then use AT guns for flanking fire. Works well for me.

But still, you got one Sherman for one AT gun, pretty good exchange rate IMO (if it was a 50mm or 75mm...).

[Fox]

i must be doin something wrong..my guns are in woods or whatever (never out in the open) and there's NO WAY i can hide ..as soon as one shot is fired, within 5-15 seconds, the entire force knows exactly where the gun is...in the few instances where there was a single tank to destroy, with no other units around...i have hidden to wait for the next victim but sure enuf..the AI drops arty right on that location...i'm just tryin to look at it from both sides...nearly 100% of the time, if the targeted tank doesn't get me, the arty will but as the tanker, i may lose 3 or 4 tanks before i find a general area of where the gun is...i don't think i've EVER gotten 4 tanks without them firing back at me....i noticed with mortar guys...u can hit p for pause as many times as u want and they regardless start firing right away...is it possible so make the AT gunner pause for, say, 50 seconds hidden, then fire at a tank and then hide em after the turn's over?

Thanks

PS. Sorry Knaust for butting in on ur post but i hope my questions help u as well

[ 04-24-2001: Message edited by: Fox ]

[ParaBellum]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fox:

i must be doin something wrong..my guns are in woods or whatever (never out in the open) and there's NO WAY i can hide ..as soon as one shot is fired, within 5-15 seconds, the entire force knows exactly where the gun is...

[ 04-24-2001: Message edited by: Fox ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The trick is to hide the guns until you got a good chance to hit. At least 50%, but I prefer 60% and higher. Then open fire (with two guns, hope you DO have 2 and placed them so that they can support each other). If all goes well, your guns should hit the target with at least their second shot. Your guns shoulnd't be detected by the enemy.

If you need more than two, three shots, chances are high that it will attract attention in some way...

Try to button up enemy tanks with MG/mortar fire. Helps to prevent them spotting your guns too quickly. Snipers are good for this, too.

If I knock out a tank with a cheap AT gun, and then my opponent drops his precious arty on the gun's position instead of my infantry, they have really fulfilled their task.

[FriendlyFire]

Four tricks for survival of AT guns:

1. Choose a target zone. Then place your guns a LONG way back in scattered trees or woods, so that they only just have LOS to it. Hiding at the front edge of some woods isn't going to work beyond the first shot.

2. If you can, place them just below the crest of a hill on the reverse slope. Then when they are spotted, most tank shells will either fly harmlessly overhead or hit the slope in front.

3. Try to shoot when there's only one enemy AFV in sight. Throw in a little light mortar fire or a sniper to button it up.

4. Put the guns under the command of an HQ unit with morale bonuses, so that when they do come under arty fire, they're less likely to break. Stealth bonuses for hiding would also be good.

Using these techniques, I've had a 50mm Pak take out 10+ AFVs at a range of 800m over the course of four turns, and not be spotted.

[Knaust]

Do you think that it is realistic that 4 BUTTONED Shermans spotted an AT gun in scattered woods after it shooted 2 rounds and within 30secs??? :eek:

...and 2 He rounds dropped within 5mts within 20secs??? :eek:

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Knaust:

I think that AT guns are too easy to destroy. ...

This will certainly impair the German tactics used in The Western Desert or Operation Barbarossa,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't find them too easy to destroy.

In my new scenario The Battle of Point 171 it's hellish to knock out the few ATGs that are positioned in the open desert, not dug in or anything. And that's with an attacker of superior number and all tanks unbuttoned.

When playing with the AI on defence you have a sporting chance. When I defended against the AI, my ATGs wiped out the attacker at minimal own casualties.

The key to success in an open terrain ATG defence is to open up with all guns at once.

That way there will be fewer enemies targeting each gun.

Cheers

Olle

[FriendlyFire]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Knaust:

Do you think that it is realistic that 4 BUTTONED Shermans spotted an AT gun in scattered woods after it shooted 2 rounds and within 30secs??? :eek:

...and 2 He rounds dropped within 5mts within 20secs??? :eek:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That depends. If your gun was way back in the scattered trees in a foxhole under the command of an HQ unit with stealth bonuses, the tanks weren't facing you, and there were no other enemy units in sight, then sure, that sounds like you got a bad break. But if you were 10m in from the treeline, no foxhole, all alone, with four Shermans facing you, and a few enemy infantry units scattered around as well, then hey, what do you expect? The 75mm ain't as small as the Pak50, and you could probably see the muzzle flash and smoke even from a tank vision slit...

[Gyrene]

Well, AT Squads have the same problem, we've all seen intances when several squads are shooting at a fleeing remnant of a infantry squad with one soldier left and nobody will touch it, but as soon as a Bazooka or PS team runs into view everyone turns into professional marksmen and the AT Squad is toast.

There does seem to be some kind of bias towards targetting AT teams in general.

Gyrene

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gyrene:

There does seem to be some kind of bias towards targetting AT teams in general.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>They do seem to be high priority targets, don't they...

I hate it when my no-AFVs defenders target low threat AT teams instead of the more dangerous infantry squads and MG teams.

Cheers

Olle

[jgdpzr]

Fox,

Pause only relates to move commands, not fire commands.

[ 04-24-2001: Message edited by: jgdpzr ]

[Fox]

ok...thanks everyone...i'll try ur suggestions ...

[109 Gustav]

Keep your guns under command of an HQ at all times! No exceptions! HQs with stealth and morale bonuses are best, because the gun will be harder to spot and won't become pinned so fast when it is.

[MikeyD]

One good technique is to give your AT gun a narrow kill zone (like down a hedged-in cross street) so he's only facing one opponent at a time. If your gun manages to cut his main approach route the opponent will have fits trying to dislodge you.

Now that I think about it, it does seem the AI has much better luck spotting MY guns that I have spotting HIS. Hmmm...

[Gyrene]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>They do seem to be high priority targets, don't they...

I hate it when my no-AFVs defenders target low threat AT teams instead of the more dangerous infantry squads and MG teams. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, in one of my PBEM I have an empty bazooka team that is being molested by 2 enemy halftracks, while many of my other squads are right next to it and receiving no attention.

Of course, that's good for me, but its a good example of what you said.

Gyrene

[Cull]

Just my two cents....nothing new here, for sure. AT guns, teams, and mortars, as we all know, receive an innapropriate amount of attention from the AI. It's my only major gripe about CM, and though I hesitate to complain at all about this awesome game, I feel very comfortable saying this. I've been playing constantly for quite awhile now, so I've got plenty of data. These units get picked out, regardless of activity, positioning, leadership, etcetera, with unrealistic precision. And they are often prioritized by the AI to the extreme. It's one thing for an AT unit (differentiating among the types assumed) that has fired and/or is fairly close to the enemy to be spotted and hammered upon. It's quite another when they are sneaking/using cover/well behind more immediately threating targets and are picked out with mystical accuracy. Like I said, nothing original or remotely new here to discuss--just wanted to add to the "wish list". Hopefully, CM2 will polish this.

[Mr. Johnson--]

hey If you want to attack me with Armor and give me Inf. And lose hard to my ATGs will you still say they are too easy to kill?

[Comic book Guy]

well i read all the posts and i agree with kraust, it sounds logical, camoed gun! 500m and 4 shermans in 30-20 secs? the would hide quicker than look for the gun and get a poor shot!