Guest Madmatt Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 The smoke logic is based on two main points. #1 HE is is not having much of an effect on the target and #2 The target is actively engaging another friendly unit. Many people come back with the same argument that "Had the Ai followed my HE order it would have killed the target", well the TacAi will sometimes disagree with that assesment since it sees that the HE wasn't doing enough (or any) damage. In that case it tries to help out a friendly unit by smoking in the threat. Keep that logic in mind when you see smoke being used. It's not always perfect but than neither is war. Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiwiJoe Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Ive noticed it a lot as well. Happens with mortors too. If my tanks have already been spotted and dont have los to anything during a turn, ill just target somewhere with smoke and get rid of the barstard things so they dont piss me off 4 the rest of the game. I find tank smoke rounds to be a waste of space mostly... firing HE into the area is usually a far better option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiwiJoe Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Ive noticed it a lot as well. Happens with mortors too. If my tanks have already been spotted and dont have los to anything during a turn, ill just target somewhere with smoke and get rid of the barstard things so they dont piss me off 4 the rest of the game. I find tank smoke rounds to be a waste of space mostly... firing HE into the area is usually a far better option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhammer Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Lorak. The unit you were targeting in the building is a HQ unit, and he was directing mortar fire. I wonder if the TacAI guessed that and decided to block his observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhammer Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 Lorak. The unit you were targeting in the building is a HQ unit, and he was directing mortar fire. I wonder if the TacAI guessed that and decided to block his observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 As others have mentioned, this has been around for awhile. At least before the 1.1 betas. The worst case I had was a King Tiger that decided to fire smoke at a group of infantry that was 900 meters (NINE HUNDRED METERS!!) away!!!!!!! I still see it happen from time to time, but haven't had it be that extreme again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 As others have mentioned, this has been around for awhile. At least before the 1.1 betas. The worst case I had was a King Tiger that decided to fire smoke at a group of infantry that was 900 meters (NINE HUNDRED METERS!!) away!!!!!!! I still see it happen from time to time, but haven't had it be that extreme again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 There have been a few occasions where I have unloaded my smoke ammo before moving in to engage. They can't fire what they don't have. ------------------ Massada Lo Tipol Shenit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 There have been a few occasions where I have unloaded my smoke ammo before moving in to engage. They can't fire what they don't have. ------------------ Massada Lo Tipol Shenit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 You know, I don't understand why BTS doesn't just let the player have control over smoke. Don't let the TacAI shoot it. When people are firing off their smoke just so the TacAI won't do something stupid with it (I do it myself) you know its not working very well. A unit will only fire smoke if told to. Such a simple solution. ------------------ You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 You know, I don't understand why BTS doesn't just let the player have control over smoke. Don't let the TacAI shoot it. When people are firing off their smoke just so the TacAI won't do something stupid with it (I do it myself) you know its not working very well. A unit will only fire smoke if told to. Such a simple solution. ------------------ You've never heard music until you've heard the bleating of a gut-shot cesspooler. -Mark IV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted January 19, 2001 Author Share Posted January 19, 2001 I guess it isn't so strange after all. I never claimed to have thought it a bug, or a problem. Just in my many, many games... I had neve seen it before. Wilhammer, LOL, I had a good idea that it was a HQ directing, or a FO unit. One reason I picked him out to be shot at. Sadly I would rather Have the FO or HQ hit and take casualties, and perhaps call no more fire the rest of the game.. than just smoke him for a turn. By the way... nice shot by your Churchhills, I had a feeling something was in that area, Sadly I was mistaken in thinking I was out of LOS where I was. Sadly it also looks like I am going to lose the other stug also... with no casualties given, but those were some nice 8 smoke rounds. Lorak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted January 19, 2001 Author Share Posted January 19, 2001 I guess it isn't so strange after all. I never claimed to have thought it a bug, or a problem. Just in my many, many games... I had neve seen it before. Wilhammer, LOL, I had a good idea that it was a HQ directing, or a FO unit. One reason I picked him out to be shot at. Sadly I would rather Have the FO or HQ hit and take casualties, and perhaps call no more fire the rest of the game.. than just smoke him for a turn. By the way... nice shot by your Churchhills, I had a feeling something was in that area, Sadly I was mistaken in thinking I was out of LOS where I was. Sadly it also looks like I am going to lose the other stug also... with no casualties given, but those were some nice 8 smoke rounds. Lorak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralsaw Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir: A unit will only fire smoke if told to. Such a simple solution. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A sensible suggestion Vanir. On the other hand, sometimes HE does not do anything, i.e. no casualties or even heads down, if the enemy is e.g. deep in the woods. Since the TacAI can probably calculate better the effect of HE in a particular situation, maybe it's better to let it smoke the target. CM's targetting facility is a means to direct attention to a unit, IMO, rather than tell it how to handle the danger. I like that. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralsaw Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir: A unit will only fire smoke if told to. Such a simple solution. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A sensible suggestion Vanir. On the other hand, sometimes HE does not do anything, i.e. no casualties or even heads down, if the enemy is e.g. deep in the woods. Since the TacAI can probably calculate better the effect of HE in a particular situation, maybe it's better to let it smoke the target. CM's targetting facility is a means to direct attention to a unit, IMO, rather than tell it how to handle the danger. I like that. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil stanbridge Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 I take it this is with the latest patch? I was under the impression that if the tank doesn't see the target as *that much* of a threat then it will attempt to block LOS in order to help others, hence the smoke rounds. I must admit, although the tanks use smoke quite a lot, it isn't half as bad as it used to be with the beta patches. I'm glad to see the AI arty doesn't fire smoke towards the end of the engagement either now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil stanbridge Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 I take it this is with the latest patch? I was under the impression that if the tank doesn't see the target as *that much* of a threat then it will attempt to block LOS in order to help others, hence the smoke rounds. I must admit, although the tanks use smoke quite a lot, it isn't half as bad as it used to be with the beta patches. I'm glad to see the AI arty doesn't fire smoke towards the end of the engagement either now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by phil stanbridge: I take it this is with the latest patch? I was under the impression that if the tank doesn't see the target as *that much* of a threat then it will attempt to block LOS in order to help others, hence the smoke rounds. I must admit, although the tanks use smoke quite a lot, it isn't half as bad as it used to be with the beta patches. I'm glad to see the AI arty doesn't fire smoke towards the end of the engagement either now!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I see this is another case of the AI thinking it is smarter than it is. Except in cases where the tank is firing smoke in an effort to save its own ass, the TacAI should NEVER fire smoke unless ordered to do so by the player. It just isn't smart enough to know if it is a good idea or not. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by phil stanbridge: I take it this is with the latest patch? I was under the impression that if the tank doesn't see the target as *that much* of a threat then it will attempt to block LOS in order to help others, hence the smoke rounds. I must admit, although the tanks use smoke quite a lot, it isn't half as bad as it used to be with the beta patches. I'm glad to see the AI arty doesn't fire smoke towards the end of the engagement either now!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I see this is another case of the AI thinking it is smarter than it is. Except in cases where the tank is firing smoke in an effort to save its own ass, the TacAI should NEVER fire smoke unless ordered to do so by the player. It just isn't smart enough to know if it is a good idea or not. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralsaw Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: Except in cases where the tank is firing smoke in an effort to save its own ass, the TacAI should NEVER fire smoke unless ordered to do so by the player. It just isn't smart enough to know if it is a good idea or not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Jeff, Based on the assertion that CM is a system with limitations, you are probably right. The player knows better than any AI, so he (or she, Tankgirl & Kitty) should fire smoke, tungsten etc. The whole discussion becomes part of the design decision of how much the player should manage and what role is the player simulating. The guys at BTS seem to have a good idea about what the role of the player is, and I don't think this is acting as tank commander, or even gunner. Personally, I find that only very few times the TacAI screws up, and my stance is to account for it as in Real Life, i.e. bad commanders, errors in judgment, luck etc. I prefer a manageable game system and a suboptimal AI, rather than having to decide on every single tactical action. It's another take on it I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralsaw Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: Except in cases where the tank is firing smoke in an effort to save its own ass, the TacAI should NEVER fire smoke unless ordered to do so by the player. It just isn't smart enough to know if it is a good idea or not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Jeff, Based on the assertion that CM is a system with limitations, you are probably right. The player knows better than any AI, so he (or she, Tankgirl & Kitty) should fire smoke, tungsten etc. The whole discussion becomes part of the design decision of how much the player should manage and what role is the player simulating. The guys at BTS seem to have a good idea about what the role of the player is, and I don't think this is acting as tank commander, or even gunner. Personally, I find that only very few times the TacAI screws up, and my stance is to account for it as in Real Life, i.e. bad commanders, errors in judgment, luck etc. I prefer a manageable game system and a suboptimal AI, rather than having to decide on every single tactical action. It's another take on it I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Space Thing Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 I've had a veteran undamaged, unbuttoned StuH42 with a clear shot at 100 meters of a buttoned up Sherman with it's flank fully exposed on a town's street and the StuH42 fired smoke in front of itself and backed up instead taking the shot. The Sherman was firing upon a different AFV with it's barrel pointing 120 degrees away from the StuH42. The Stuh42 was perfectly lined up for the shot. I've also had several games where smoke appears in weird parts of the battlefield without me ever ordering smoke. Once there was smoke fired into a building. This didn't happen once, it happened twice in the same turn. Something isn't right. I won't use the "b" word, but it seems that something needs to be tweaked IMHO. "...and I've never met a Space Thing that I didn't like." ABRAHAM LINCOLN's real ending to his Gettysburg address before it was supressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Space Thing Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 I've had a veteran undamaged, unbuttoned StuH42 with a clear shot at 100 meters of a buttoned up Sherman with it's flank fully exposed on a town's street and the StuH42 fired smoke in front of itself and backed up instead taking the shot. The Sherman was firing upon a different AFV with it's barrel pointing 120 degrees away from the StuH42. The Stuh42 was perfectly lined up for the shot. I've also had several games where smoke appears in weird parts of the battlefield without me ever ordering smoke. Once there was smoke fired into a building. This didn't happen once, it happened twice in the same turn. Something isn't right. I won't use the "b" word, but it seems that something needs to be tweaked IMHO. "...and I've never met a Space Thing that I didn't like." ABRAHAM LINCOLN's real ending to his Gettysburg address before it was supressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralsaw Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 ST, I haven't seen such a thing, so if you have the file, could you pls email me. A few of points though: - The StuH42 is an Assault Howitzer, and thus is not designed to fight tanks. - If it doesn't carry C class ammo it may not penetrate the Sherman even at 100m - If it carries C class ammo, then it should save it for self-defence. - The fast Sherman turret is a big danger, if the StuH misses. - The crew might have been green and did not take the chance. - The StuH's crew first duty is to stay alive. Had the StuH missed the first round (a definite possibility), the Sherman would have killed it no doubt. It seems a plausible real-world tactic to me... ------------------ My squads are regular, must be the fibre in the musli... [This message has been edited by coralsaw (edited 01-19-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coralsaw Posted January 19, 2001 Share Posted January 19, 2001 ST, I haven't seen such a thing, so if you have the file, could you pls email me. A few of points though: - The StuH42 is an Assault Howitzer, and thus is not designed to fight tanks. - If it doesn't carry C class ammo it may not penetrate the Sherman even at 100m - If it carries C class ammo, then it should save it for self-defence. - The fast Sherman turret is a big danger, if the StuH misses. - The crew might have been green and did not take the chance. - The StuH's crew first duty is to stay alive. Had the StuH missed the first round (a definite possibility), the Sherman would have killed it no doubt. It seems a plausible real-world tactic to me... ------------------ My squads are regular, must be the fibre in the musli... [This message has been edited by coralsaw (edited 01-19-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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