Best reading to get ready for CM2 ? David M.Glantz or Erickson

[Crockett]

One of the reason that I so much enjoyed CM is that I had a good knowledge of the Western front history and since I was born in France and lived there for long years I traveled a lot and visited many times many of the places I meet in CM battles -- from Normandy to Marseille and from Bretagne to Belgium .

I am sure that some knowledge of the Eastern front history will be part of my pleasure when playing CM2. Today my knowledge on this front is close to ...zero

Too bad that have not the time to visit Eastern Europe but I have time to read.

Among all the recommended books about the Eastern front ,two of them have attracted my attention:

David M. Glantz's "When Titans Clashed" ( 384 pages )

Erickson's "Road To Stalingrad" and "Road To Berlin" ( 1400 both books )

I need your help to make my choice before ordering...

All these books received excellent reviews and both authors are covering the same period.Is the Glantz's "When Titans Clashed" with 384 pages missing something really important that Erickson's 2 books with 1400 pages are covering ?

What is your opinion about these books( or maybe other recommendations )?

Crockett

[Andreas]

Glantz is a lot more accessible. Ericsson is very good too, but it takes a lot of effort to follow, and his books were written with a scholarly audience in view. The absence of maps in it (at least my cheap edition) makes it very difficult to follow events too.

Start with Glantz - if you want more after that, go for Ericsson.

[Mr. Johnson--]

I have Glantz and House's "The Battle of Kursk". It is very good. My only complaint is it does not have really good maps. But my trusty binoculars can be used as a magnifiying glass.

And their are some great CMers around who hooked me up with some decent maps of the area in greater detail. Pretty good book. Combined with Panzertruppen, and "German Battle Tactics on the Russian Front", by Steven H. Newton and Von Mellenthin's Panzer Battles I got a very good understanding of the Kursk battle. The last chance the Germans had for a stalemate on the eastern front.

[Robert Mayer]

Erickson was one of the first Western scholars to gain access to the then-Soviet archives, and his massive two-volume work remains indispensable as a detailed recounting of combat operations in the Germany-USSR conflict. He's boring as hell though, and after a while your eyes glaze and all you see is a never-ending roll of XX Korps and 34th Army and XXXth Tank Brigade, ad nauseum. Still very useful, and well worth getting, especially if you can get a nice edition.

Glantz is better written in some ways, though Clash of the Titans is more of an overivew--his battle-specific stuff is dry but often very good. He has a new-ish series that includes companion atlases; I know he has one for the 1941 battles around Smolensk. Neither Glantz nor Erickson is going to be mistaken for Stephen King (or even John Keegan) as an accessible writer, but they're great places to go for detailed info.

For an overview, though, Clash of the Titans is much better than the Road books. Also Werth's book is decent as well.

[Grisha]

I'd second what Robert Mayer says. Even Glantz himself considers Erickson the definitive source due to the sheer intensity and scholarship of Erickson's works. Still, Glantz is a bit easier to read with more updated information, and he does have maps. There is something unique with Erickson's writing though, almost a personal/narrative quality to it, if not for the amazing amount of information he packs into his sentences Personally, I'd recommend both, but if it has to be one, then Glantz it is.

And while I tend to toot my 'Glantz horn' at frequent intervals, I do advise that you pick up some German works as well. The memoirs of Guderian, von Manstein, and von Mellenthin are classic works, unveiling a vivid picture into the world of the Wehrmacht and its war in Russia. They may not all be entirely objective, but as memoirs they really shine.

Finally, a great book that could be classified as half history, half memoir is 'War in Russia' by Alexander Werth. He was a BBC correspondent who lived and worked in Moscow during WWII, and his insights into the country and people of what was then the Soviet Union are truly unique among western literature.

[Crockett]

Thanks for your recommendations

Glantz and Werth are on their way .Guderian will be next

Cheers

Crockett

[Jeff Duquette]

ConsimWorld: Regarding the Russo-German Conflict, what would you consider the single greatest work published on the campaign authored by someone other than yourself, and why?

Glantz: The finest works of the German-Soviet War are Ziemke's two volumes, Seaton's major work, and John Erickson's two volumes (The Road to Stalingrad and The Road to Berlin), and especially the latter's work. John exploited Khrushchevian glasnost to gain access to hitherto unavailable archival materials. His two books are massive stream-of-consciousness efforts whose imposing contents will likely never be matched. They are also hard to read and must be studied. When Titans Clashed was meant to undate John's efforts and add what was new in terms of scholarship -- not to replace his work.

[Mark IV]

You might also be able to find Department of the Army Pamphlets No. 20-230, "Russian Combat Methods in World War II" (November 1950) and No. 20-233, "German Defense Tactics against Russian Breathroughs" (October 1951).

They are compiled (with little commentary) from high-ranking German POW interviews, in unvarnished, self-serving, but vividly fresh detail, at a time when we thought we might be next, for study by US officers.

No one else was reading them when I out-processed so I kept 'em.

[John Kettler]

Mark IV,

The gems in that series are still available from the U.S. Government Printing Office Bookstore, or were last time I checked. I got my DA 20-230, Russian Combat Methods in World War II from the Los Angeles branch. This little study was based on debriefing German combat officers concerning what they'd learned

from service in the East about how the Russians actually fought. The book's divided into sections concerning various combat and combat support aspects, including partisan operations and the Red Air Force, depicted through a series of vignettes and well supported by maps, though the map scale is operational rather than tactical.

I believe there's a GPO web site as well. TryGPO home page.

Crockett,

Though I suffered through the meaty and turgid Erickson works and only a few years ago became

became truly aware of David Glantz, I remember with fondness from my junior high days the two East Front books by Paul Carell (later found to be the nom de plume for Paul Carl Schmidt, a Nazi press official). The books were HITLER MOVES EAST and SCORCHED EARTH. The first covers the period of the advance and the other the progressive disintegration and collapse of the German position in the East. These books put the human face on the war in the East, being full of low level, even individual accounts of combat, plus lots of good pictures. Carell is a master of depicting the fear, the uncertainty, the triumphs and the terrors of the common soldier. There you can read about the Russians who refused to leave their fortifications for weeks, resisted ferociously, even lived on grass. You can read about the hair raising experience of a German Panzer commander whose small unit found itself unwittingly joining a long Russian tank convoy at night. You can read about the "dead" tank in the courtyard of a German divisional CP, a dead tank which roared to life days after the CP set up, much to the surprise of that HQ. You can freeze before Moscow in summer uniform, find out what the partisans could do, and cower as titanic artillery and Katyusha fire strips snow covered ground bare. And the marauding T-34s are not forgotten, nor the desperate methods adopted to combat them.

These books may not be the last word in scholarship, far from it, but they are based on enormous numbers of interviews with the grunts and their counterparts in other branches, with the men who fought and died in the millions in the East. It is war up close.

Another favorite of mine is THE FORGOTTEN SOLDIER, by Guy Sajer. Sajer was an Alsatian (French national) drafted into the Wehrmacht, who ultimately wound up in the elite Grossdeutschland Division.

Generally, English language accounts of this sort are hard to come by for the Russians, but Martin Caidin's academically outdated 1974 book THE TIGERS ARE BURNING looks at Kursk from a decidedly Soviet perspective, and provides some wonderful anecdotes depicting the incredible stamina and courage of the Russian soldier. There are also web sites specifically devoted to the accounts of WWII Russian veterans. They make engrossing, sometimes appalling reading.

By all means, read the high level accounts, but if you want to understand the battlefield dynamics, the what it was like, read what the people who fought and bled and died have to say. Read about the small unit actions. Kenneth Macksey's TANK VERSUS TANK has quite a bit of coverage of the evolution of armored warfare on the Eastern Front, plus multiple analyses of armored engagements at several different dates. John Milsom's RUSSIAN TANKS 1917-1970 is a must read for its wealth of information on the development, organization and employment of Russian armor.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

John Kettler

PS

If you don't want to wade through thousands of pages to get your Eastern Front feet wet, may I suggest pages 18-29 of the Scotts' THE ARMED FORCES OF THE USSR, Third Edition? Those few pages will give you the fundamentals of what happened from the Russian perspective. They'll teach you the essence of the Great Patriotic War.

[Crockett]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Kettler:

Crockett,

I remember with fondness from my junior high days the two East Front books by Paul Carell (later found to be the nom de plume for Paul Carl Schmidt, a Nazi press official). The books were HITLER MOVES EAST and SCORCHED EARTH...

Another favorite of mine is THE FORGOTTEN SOLDIER, by Guy Sajer. Sajer was an Alsatian (French national) drafted into the Wehrmacht, who ultimately wound up in the elite Grossdeutschland Division.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks John,

Damn,that's a lot of good books (I begin to believe in a possible BTS and Amazon conspiracy )

By the way I saw in Amazon an other Paul Carell's book : Invasion! They're Coming!( The German Account of the D-Day Landings and the 80 Days'Battle for France )

About Guy Sajer THE FORGOTTEN SOLDIER which maybe is not the last word in scholarship,I read it in French when I was living in Paris as teenager ( which means long ago! ).If there are some books that I will remember all my life this one is among them...I remember that I read it almost without being able to stop.When I went back home from school I left the supper on the table and ran to my room to go on reading this book.I certainly will buy it again

Crockett

[ 06-19-2001: Message edited by: Crockett ]

[ParaBellum]

I would also like to add "Stalingrad" by A. Beevor. A great book, very nice to read. It starts with the invasion of Russia and ends with the destruction of the 6th army.

From the memoirs section I would recommend Guderian, v.Mannstein, Mellenthin and 'Panzermeyers' "Grenadiere". The first three will describe the campaign from army/corps level while Meyer concentrates on bataillon/company scale operations. The book describes his actions during WW2 from Poland to Normandy and includes his experiences on the eastern front.

[Mark IV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Kettler:

I believe there's a GPO web site as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some great stuff there. To save others some governmental grief, here's link right to the Military History section:

GPO Military History Publications

I was amazed at the amount of stuff available, at generally reasonable prices.

How does this sound?

"Military Improvisations During the Russian Campaign. BOOK. 1951. Describes the main characteristics of German army improvisations and the part they played on the Russian front during World War II. Improvisation was used to deal with a growing Red army, while German forces and supplies were decreasing. Tactical, logistical, technical and organizational improvisations are discussed in detail. 118 p.; ill. 1986-repr. 0-16-001944-3

D 114.19/3:R 92

S/N 008-029-00142-0 -- $5.50"

Some great finds on other wars, too. Thanks for the link.

[Jeff Duquette]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Mark IV said: You might also be able to find Department of the Army Pamphlets No. 20-230, "Russian Combat Methods in World War II" (November 1950) and No. 20-233, "German Defense Tactics against Russian Breathroughs" (October 1951).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent works. Most of the US ARMY pamphlets\studies-- incidently these pamphlets are based upon post war interviews and articles written by German Soldiers that served on the Eastern Front – were gathered up and published by Greenhill Books. The folks at Greenhill published two books entitled:

“Fighting in Hell, The German Ordeal on the Eastern Front”

“The Anvil of War, German Generalship in Defense on the Eastern Front”

Anvil of war contains the whole pamphlet "German Defense Tactics against Russian Breathroughs", "Military Improvisations on the Eastern Front" as well as several others.

You might be able to track these down directly through Greenhill Books. I obtained mine from used book outlets on the internet.

Another one to keep an eye out for in the Army series is: Department of the Army Pamphlet No 20-269, “Small Unit Actions During the German Campaign in Russia”

[Crockett]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV:

Some great stuff there. To save others some governmental grief, here's link right to the Military History section:

GPO Military History Publications

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With no success I tried to find the link...You did it ...Lot of great stuff there.

Thanks

[Geier]

Anyone have any thoughts on "Operation Citadel" by Robin Cross? It is the only Kursk-specific literature I own presently. I remember thinking it to be a very "readable" account, as in "easy to grasp and understand" without going adjective-heavy or over-simplified.

I also own a copy of "Panzer Operationen" by Hermann Hoth. Has anyone seen an English translation of this one? My german is horrible these days but I'm keeping it just in case. It seems to be accounts of Barbarossa mainly but I am unsure whether there are descriptions of Wintergewitter or later events.

I second the votes for von Mansteins "Lost Victories" - Chuikovs (Zhukov) biography is also an interesting read, especially if read simultaenously with for example von Mansteins.

Johan,

Inventing new words as he goes along. "Adjective-heavy" indeed.

[jhdeerslayer]

William Craig's, Enemy at the Gates of course. Excellent account of Stalingrad. Don't confuse this with the movie...

Carell's books are great reads also. He has one on the Afrika Korps also plus the D-Day one already mentioned.

[Grisha]

Geier,

No offense, but Chuikov & Zhukov were two different people. Chuikov was the famous General of the army that held Stalingrad, 62nd Army. Zhukov was the famous Marshal, best known for his actions in 1941, both at Leningrad and Moscow.

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Geier:

Anyone have any thoughts on "Operation Citadel" by Robin Cross? It is the only Kursk-specific literature I own presently. J

ohan,

Inventing new words as he goes along. "Adjective-heavy" indeed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd reccomend for further reading on Kursk also:

Dunn Walter S JR: Kursk Hitler's Gamble, 1943

Glantz David, House Jonathan: The Battle of Kursk

Both works offer alot of new perspectives on Zitadelle. Dunn's work was one of the 1st to dispell many of the myths surrounding the Prokorovka battles.

Regards, John Waters.

[ 06-21-2001: Message edited by: PzKpfw 1 ]