flares, artifical moonlight

[vireo]

One thing that has come up in accounts of WWII combat that I've read is the use of flares, lighting up the night sky, signalling the beginning of a night attack or being fired in an effort to spot attacking troops. On a related note, the Americans also used "artificial moonlight" -- a spotlight bounced off low cloud cover -- to spot enemy troops trying to attack a bridge or something. It would be cool if the use of flares could be modeled in CM. Perhaps enemy units illuminated by a flare could be spotted at a greater distance than is usually possible in a night battle. Just a thought.

[Michael Dorosh]

Americans?????

Canadians and British first used Artificial Moonlight, if my memory serves, unless they borrowed it from the Yanks. In any event, it wasn't just Mr. G.I.

[Tread Head]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Americans?????

Canadians and British first used Artificial Moonlight, if my memory serves, unless they borrowed it from the Yanks. In any event, it wasn't just Mr. G.I.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I think it was pre-war Germany that thought the "Moonlight" thing up...... Remember the Olympic games opening in Berlin?

[JonS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vireo:

... It would be cool if the use of flares could be modeled in CM...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But it already is! It takes a bit of finding but its there alright. Works grate to.

[Hon John Howard MP LLB]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Americans?????

Canadians and British first used Artificial Moonlight, if my memory serves, unless they borrowed it from the Yanks. In any event, it wasn't just Mr. G.I.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually it was the British who developed and deployed the only "artifical moonlight" systems.

They developed the CDL (Canal Defence Light) turret for the Matilda in 1940. Original intention was to use a very powerful searchlight to dazzle the enemy. To prevent from being destroyed easily the light actually shone directly up from the floor of the turret. A mirror turned it through 90 degrees and concentrated it and an armoured shutter moving rapidly across the beam to prevent shrapnel and bullets from damaging the mirror.

The shutter gave a strobe effect which they discovered actually improved its effects on defenders.

Later transferred to a Grant/Lee chassis it was also supplied as a complete unit to US units.

First used in the Rhine crossing and the North German Plain.

One of many of the "funnies" deployed by 79 Armd Div.

[Stixx]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JonS:

But it already is! It takes a bit of finding but its there alright. Works grate to. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he was talking about something OTHER than turning the brightness up on your monitor.

[Michael Dorosh]

Artificial Moonlight was used several times in Normandy, also, though I don't think the searchlights were mounted on AFVs but rather standard searchlight batteries.

[Slapdragon]

CDL and vehicle mounts were rare, and only used in very specific situations where long throw and a dug in defender allowed to be of more use to an attacker than harm.

The British issued Naval Very Lights to soldiers fired from flare guns in WW1. The Germans used magnesium flares. By WW2 all armies had hand launched and artillery parachute flares, hand flares, and star shells.

[Tread Head]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hon John Howard MP LLB:

[QB]

Actually it was the British who developed and deployed the only "artifical moonlight" systems.

QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess you did not read my post.... Sorry Chap, read your history. The idea was not English... They were the first to use it on the battlefield though.

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hon John Howard MP LLB:

Actually it was the British who developed and deployed the only "artifical moonlight" systems.

They developed the CDL (Canal Defence Light) turret for the Matilda in 1940. Original intention was to use a very powerful searchlight to dazzle the enemy. To prevent from being destroyed easily the light actually shone directly up from the floor of the turret. A mirror turned it through 90 degrees and concentrated it and an armoured shutter moving rapidly across the beam to prevent shrapnel and bullets from damaging the mirror.

The shutter gave a strobe effect which they discovered actually improved its effects on defenders.

Later transferred to a Grant/Lee chassis it was also supplied as a complete unit to US units.

First used in the Rhine crossing and the North German Plain.

One of many of the "funnies" deployed by 79 Armd Div.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read these were not actually used, and I have seen a call on the Tankmuseum website for veterans to come forward with information. At least one of the regiments with CDL was converted to (IIRC) Buffaloes around the time of the Scheldt clearing, according to my reading.

[Michael Emrys]

I have the vague notion that something like this was used on the opening night of 2nd. Alamein. It proved of greater benefit to the Axis as it tended to silhouette the advancing Commonwealth soldiers against the bright sky. :eek:

Michael

[David Aitken]

I'll just dump these here and make off...

Night

NIGHT FIGHTING

Did starshells make it?

Are star shells and bridge demolition simulated?

Night and illumination

Lighting -other than fuses & flares

Night combat revisited (long)

illuminating rounds for night fights

night time visability

Flares at Night

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

I have the vague notion that something like this was used on the opening night of 2nd. Alamein. It proved of greater benefit to the Axis as it tended to silhouette the advancing Commonwealth soldiers against the bright sky. :eek:

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the same happened at the start of EPSOM, IIRC. They used it again during TOTALIZE, AFAIK.

[Triumvir]

Is no one going to mention Seelowe Heights and Zhukov's batteries of searchlights? Admittedly, they didn't work very well, but...

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Triumvir:

Is no one going to mention Seelowe Heights and Zhukov's batteries of searchlights? Admittedly, they didn't work very well, but...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As you can see, much more reading on the West than the East, in my case at least.

[Ellros]

And the Germans used artificial moonlight during the opening night attacks of the Battle of the Bulge. So it obviosly wasn't limited to one side or force.

[JasonC]

Correct Ellros. And they were used again in the attacks on Elsenborn ridge later in the same battle, not just on the opening day. Nobody had any monopoly on the idea.

Which doesn't mean it worked particularly well, incidentally. A big problem attackers have with lighting ideas is they tend to be above ground and moving, while the defenders are often stationary in holes. Which tend to be darker, whatever lighting means are employed. The defender usually gets an edge from night-lighting, regardless of nationality or who is using which kind of lights.

[ 09-06-2001: Message edited by: JasonC ]

[MikeyD]

I recall reading (based on VERY distant memory) The Brit CDLs were used only once, either during the Rhine crossing or perhaps later to protect a Rhine pontoon bridge or something similar. I understand the reason they were underused was because they were just too darned secret and the commanders didn't realise they were available, a common fate for several U.S. special projects.