Michael Dorosh Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Guys, I know I'm just a newbie here, but I have thoroughly enjoyed getting to hang out and talk to, and learn from, all of you. I think we all love CM, and we are all a little skeptical of other companies, and worry that something will come along to hurt the development of what has become, in my case anyway, my all-time favourite game. I would never dream of trying to tell any of you what to do, how to act, or what to say, but I would like you to seriously consider the following. Going to other messageboards and cutting down a product that doesn't even exist yet not only puts us down to Gunny Bunny's level (when he was at his worst), but I think makes us look even worse. This message board is open to anyone - including Talonsoft employees and users of the GI Combat board. It won't take them long to figure out who we are. Going over to their board and basically making asses of ourselves not only makes us look bad as individuals, but reflects on the CM community as a whole, and in the end on BTS. My suggestion (and that is all this is, I won't mention this again) is that we display the same decorum and good manners there that we would expect anyone to display here. They are obviously excited about their product, and have opened themselves up to us. Let's show them that Combat Mission players are not stupid or closed minded, but rather intelligent, thoughtful, creative people who are interested in wargames that don't insult our intelligence, that make us think - that are worthy of us. I wouldn't want Talonsoft employees or fans to come on here and run down CM - unless it was in a thought provoking and non-combative way. While discussions of the relative merits of game design will only benefit the hobby as a whole, simple flame wars and attacks on something we haven't even seen yet will only provoke a lot of ill-feeling, and in the end everyone loses. So I would invite you all to exercise a bit of restraint when posting there; I think it's in all our best interests. We can say what we like here, to a point, but going over there means you're a guest - it's still GI Combat's "home." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jd Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 I'll second that. As has been pointed out they are still in developmental stages and really do not have much to share. Not that you can't ask questions about what the parameters of the game will be, but to engage in a debate about CM v Gi Combat is not called for. Remember how it felt when we had our CC incursion a while back? Be classy, let them take the shots. When the games available evaluate it. Because it may not hold a candle to CM (which I suspect will be the case) remember that it is a way to get more people interested in wargaming and that is a good thing. Serious players will soon figure out if the final product is good or not. But remember that newbies to wargaming who use it as an entrance point will be potential BTS clients. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmead Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 I agree, if it ends up being good and we were some small part of making it that way (as some who frequent this board did with CMBO), then great. No matter what happens we will likely gain. If the product ends up better than BTS's current product it will goad them to innovate further. If it ends up being trash then we will have lost little beyond the time to type a few notes (which it seems some people certainly have more than enough time to do, Peng, doh! ). Lets try and behave. Keep in mind the wonderful screenshots in the archive of BTS that sold me on CMBO nearly two years ago. If GI can get more people into this hobby we all have much to gain in new opponents and game choices. I must say I was dismayed to see the moderators over there dissing our fine hosts abilties so strongly. Very unprofessional in my view. I wonder if Steve was lurking around over there? By the way when can we preorder CM2? I hope we can get a T34 print this time [This message has been edited by kmead (edited 02-02-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PawBroon Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Self quoted from another thread: /Rant mode ON Give those guys a break will you. There are already some of us in their forum roughing them up a bit. To date, wargame as a genre is as lively as Bauhaus' sex life... Every single addition is a God send. If a Real Time Continuous Wargame (or what the Hell it is they call it) is what it takes to bring in the masses and let them discover the joy of wargaming in with an easy Dune-like game then no probs... In due time most of those will end up in here. It's work in progress, of course it looks like ****. And YES it looks like a total rip off of CM. Let them grow with it. No reason to go on their forum and be rude like some CC players were a while back in here. /Rant mode OFF Thanks Michael. Obviously since I posted that earlier in the day not much had been going but a witch hunt. I can't believe we could behave like so many primates... Let them do their game. It's THEIR place, THEIR forum and THEIR adventure to partake with. Don't be so rude or we will have scores of them spaming this very forum in no time. ------------------ You are not Obsessive-CMpulsive, you are Allied-Retentive. Mark IV [This message has been edited by PawBroon (edited 02-02-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaffertape Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 I heartily agree. We are all aware that CM stands as an excellent product on its own - BTS don't need (and certainly don't want) us to act as enforcers to trash other companies. GAFF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 I'm also in agreement! Good post Michael! I checked out their message board, and you can tell it just went online... not much there yet. For what it will be, the game sounds interesting enough. I don't plan on spending my time there, as I don't like Real Time Strategy/Tactics games (above the squad level), but I would certainly hope no-one feels the need to start a cross forum flame war... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Absollutely. Their game is so far away from being anywhere that it can be fairly evaluated it isn't even funny. Showing up and questioning their design philosophy or what they are trying to accomplish is stupid. They are trying to copy CM. So what? That was inevitable. There is no chance a bunch of CM fans showing up and acting like 14 year olds is going to make them change their minds. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 I would also second that - remember how much we enjoyed the attention by some CC'ers. Let them go ahead with the game, no need to get worked up about it. It will also just make CM'ers look like a bunch of nutters out on a holy war (which is what we are, but hey, no need to alert others to it). This is not necessarily a bad development for BTS anyway - competition will enliven the market, and it will draw people to CM. Just look at how many ex-CC'ers now swear by CMBO. The same will happen again. Many people will have a look at TS's offering, play it for a while, get interested in the concept, but then get annoyed by historical inaccuracies/dancing tanks, if there are any, and look for the real thing. Et voila - another sale for BTS. So - chill before you go there, don't post unless you have something at least a little bit constructive to add, and give them a chance to get it totally wrong If TS is as bad as some of their former customers think, they don't need our help to do it. Anyway - IGOTMILK™ just introduced himself on their board. That should put paid to it without anyone from here annoying them. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Agreed. Guys, they've posted four screenshots and a gameplay movie. There is absolutely no basis on which to judge the game yet. It'd be a bit like someone coming on to this forum and flaming CM based upon screenshots from the beta demo. Personally, I have doubts that they can pull off what they've promised, but there's nothing for that but to wait and see. When I first heard about CM I doubted BTS could pull this off either...but they did. There is nothing to be gained by gangbanging other games' fora. For whatever reason. ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Originally posted by Chupacabra: Personally, I have doubts that they can pull off what they've promised, but there's nothing for that but to wait and see. When I first heard about CM I doubted BTS could pull this off either...but they did. There is nothing to be gained by gangbanging other games' fora. For whatever reason. Great point. I remember one of the very early screen shots where the caption was talking about some Sherman thinking he was out of LOS or something. I remember thinking "Hmmmm, sounds good, but...." Who knows? Maybe this game will be awesome. Probably it won't. Wait and see. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedbump Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Oh, thank goodness. I thought someone had started a Peng Challenge Thread over there! I am sure that would have really got it going! Speedbump "Junior Member, but Veteran Lurker" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jd Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Slappy posted a follow up that I think help clarify his comments and was positive feedback. That is he hopes the focus will be at the actual squad level, then FPS/RTS makes more sense and might make a good addition to wargaming. Any larger than that and it risks dissolving into a massive clickfest. As was noted IgotMilk, an interesting character has signed on so best to pity them. Finally, Fionn has shown up and made inquires as to what is happening. What's a bit perplexing is that there have been quite a few number of posts that are asking about game parameters,but no one is answering them. Not a good customer service action. I 'd expect (cause BTS spoiled me) that it'd be wise to have a constant monitor on it and get some basic answers out there to new arrivals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Chupacabra wrote: Guys, they've posted four screenshots and a gameplay movie. There is absolutely no basis on which to judge the game yet. Now that ain't "zactly" true. There is the stated fact that it is real time (ugh), versus turn based strategy. Which, is at least one point upon which to judge it. All other things being potentially unknown, save for it's coincedental similarity in textures appearance to CM. Otherwise I'd agree with ya. And go so far as to say it really doesn't matter to me personally. I got CM, so whether that thing is good, not so good, a waste, or a blast, is just all fine and dandy by me. I'll be playing CM. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jd Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 From Fionn's post which I think makes a very good point to remember..... GI Combat will survive or fall on its ability to get casual wargamers and RT gamers to buy it ON THE SHELVES (a real difference no-one has yet focussed on.. publicly). It's going for a different market. It's market wouldn't know a Pz III E from a Pz II L. It'll be flashy, graphicy and RT and it will sell to its market. I hope it does well, it certainly should if it is finished well and gets promoted heavily as the basic idea is a winner. that means ultimately more CM sales. Fionn finished by saying "Support wargaming, not tribalism." Well said. [This message has been edited by jd (edited 02-02-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Actually I want them to come out with a wargame, just not a copy. Wargamers were dealt a blow when Avalon Hill dies, no one takes us seriously and the makers of computer classics like Steel Panthers and CC2 seemed to be fading. Then BTS comes along and ignites a revolution. I want 20 manufacturers to be successful making great wargames, all the more for me to choose from. If Talonsoft is making a great game that is different from BTS by dealing with squads or very small units, that is still a wargame rather than a shooter, and is not a click fest then I love it. But they need the feedback right now that a straight clone of CM is no good, especially set in the same era. You want to do a clone, take it some place else like WW3. Otherwise we need to tell them, as players, the idea is stupid. And hopefully they as a company will listen and be able to change. Also -- their press release and web site sucks for the amount of information it provides. I have Freshman that could do better in an hour. So why not give em some polite heat until they clarify. If a clone is what they are making, then they deserve way more contempt than I am giving them. If they are bringing us very small unit action in real time then I am the first to cheer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Steiner Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Hi all Agree with all the above. For BTS I would say Imitation Is Indeed The Best Form Of Flattery Cheers Gary Barr ------------------ Sgt Steiner Belfast NI UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Originally posted by Slapdragon: Actually I want them to come out with a wargame, just not a copy. Wargamers were dealt a blow when Avalon Hill dies, no one takes us seriously and the makers of computer classics like Steel Panthers and CC2 seemed to be fading. Then BTS comes along and ignites a revolution. I want 20 manufacturers to be successful making great wargames, all the more for me to choose from. If Talonsoft is making a great game that is different from BTS by dealing with squads or very small units, that is still a wargame rather than a shooter, and is not a click fest then I love it. But they need the feedback right now that a straight clone of CM is no good, especially set in the same era. You want to do a clone, take it some place else like WW3. . It is not a clone simply because it is going to be RT. That alone makes it vastly more differnt than arbitrarily setting it in some different era. A game just like CM down to the last detail except based on Korea is a lot more similar to a game just like CM set in WW2 that is not WeGo. And even if it was a clone, if it built upon what CM has done so far, and improved it, that would be fine by me. That is what Half-Life did for instance, and I think it is one of the best games in the last decade. Same with Icewind Dale, Janes FA-18, etc., etc. I think Fionn had a good point. If they make a 3d WW2 tactical wargame, it is going to look a lot like CM. That is simply inevitable. That does not necessarily make it a clone. Currently there is nowhere near enough information to make any kind of judgement. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 2, 2001 Author Share Posted February 2, 2001 Their website and lack of responsiveness (to be fair, though, they have only been open for business two days! LOL!) do seem to beg the question "what are they hiding" but it is too early to tell. I like Fionn's comment about community, not tribalism - it is dead on the money. Slapdragon makes a good point too, though, about saturating the market with games that are very similar. Hopefully GIC is not a case of that. I cheered when AH went under, though - a lot of bad experiences with them, and although I consider CM a direct extension of SL and ASL, I still kind of regret, in total hindsight, having spent all my money on ASL not realizing something like CM would come along and expose all its flaws which we had willingly accepted for so long. TAHGC is a great example, Jeff will no doubt agree, of what happens when you don't pay attention to the marketplace, or try and keep up (I am talking about AH's computer line - Under Fire, for one ancient example, which I think was behind the times even when it was released). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apache Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Totally agree. To be fair, when little else was about TS Battleground series was a godsend to people who wanted to wargame on PCs. CM is undoubtedly 'state of the art' as will the sequels be, but if GI introduces more to the genre - fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Belles Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Definitely; nicely put, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted February 2, 2001 Share Posted February 2, 2001 Yes, I also agree. We don't like ill informed people stomping around our backyard trashing our game and I am sure they don't either so lets be respectful and see what pans out. Lets also please move all these discussions to the General Forum where they belong. Madmatt [This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 02-02-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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