Parade Ground Commands

[CaSCa]

I play alot of QB's and I am always miffed by the fact that the troops are just strewn in a long line along the back edge of the map. Pardon me, but even though I was in the U.S. Navy I like a bit of precision to my ranks prior to committing them to their starting positions. It builds morale (mine).

Now I don't expect that the time should be taken to write the code to have them presented to you in parade ground precision. The long line would still suffice. In fact I enjoy the surprise of moving folks about and figuring out what you just got, especially in computer purchased scenarios. But what would be nice would be commands of the align-left, align-right, dress-ranks variety during the set-up phase. You could select the leader and all of the troops and get them formed up in nice columns and rows.

Please don't get me wrong, my canned vegetables are not aligned in alphabetical order in my kitchen cabinets, but perhaps something could be done to bring order to the chaos.

[Panzer76]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CaSCa:

presented to you in parade ground precision. The long line would still suffice. In fact I enjoy the surprise of the <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On a general note; the stupidest thing you have to learn in the military is parading. The worlds most effiecent army, Israel's, have always focused on practical training instead of "look we can parade right into our death" ****.

When thats said, I'm not very impressed by the Israelies right now, but lets NOT get into that discussion, it would be NASTY!

[Triumvir]

I second Panzer76. Drill is good for parades and looking all pretty and military (read Norman Dixon for his opinions on what square bashers are) but pretty useless for modern combat -- even for WW2 combat.

Honestly, though, I like the idea of having my opponent advance towards me parade ground style. Then I could snigger to myself

<accent stereotype="German" heaviness="thick">

-- Hans! Look! Ze Amerikaners never learn, do zey?

-- Ja, Karl, it's like cutting trees down mit chainsaw.

-- Ooooh, Fritz! Look at zat one get cut in two!

-- Nein, Karl, watch _zat_! Dress ranks _now_, you arschelochen!

</accent>

If they're British, then there's lots of Somme jokes too.

As for order in chaos... I refer you to Clausewitz...

[KnifeForkSpoon]

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm pretty sure I'm right), but Parade is for more than just lookin' military.

Parade and drill help to form and foster teamwork among a group of soldiers. By endlessly repeating the Drill, guided by simple shouted commands, and with punishment for mistakes . . . these Drills hone a team of soldiers to react in combat as they would on the parade ground. They'd react together, as a team, at the simple barked command. They'd do it fast, too. Or else it's consequence time.

By training the soldiers to react unquestioningly to the barked commands and heirarchy of drill/parade, you get a tighter fighting unit in combat.

This is the theory anyhoo . . .

KFS

P.S. I sure hated drill. But when you got to a certain level, you could actually develop a smidgin' of pride from it all.

[Triumvir]

You can do drills that don't involve crashing a left heel down on the parade square. We were taught many IA drills that were to be carried out without hesitation, from clearing a stoppage to, when being ambushed, charging into the sprung ambush.

I've done my share of precision, and it can be fun -- but the amount of cohesion you get out of parade drill can be better found in the field, doing battle drills; and you feel more like a soldier when you're muddy and hefting a weapon, instead of being all dressed up with blackened boots and beret.

[Jager]

Parade sucks. been there, done that. But seriously, I'd like to have the troops organized differently during the setup. It's time consuming to find the troops from the line.

So here's my idea. Why not have the troops in a parade ground formations in the beginning. i.e. have a company of infantry organized behind it's commander. Each platoon in it's own row/line/rank (what's the correct word here). Support weapons either in their own section or divided evenly to the platoons (thats the way I like).

There could even be an area right outside of the map that holds the troops and has the labels for them: rifle company, forward observers, HMG's, etc. No need to check the units to find the single SMG platoon amongst all the rifle companies.

[Triumvir]

Better than all that, have a master list of all units that the player can access so that they can jump to those units. That way you don't have to worry about coding formations into the game; they can be more quickly found by the user and can be found throughout the rest of the game.

I hesitate to mention Steel Panthers...

[Jager]

The list would be excellent

It would be good to be able to mark the units (in the list) that you have placed on the map. So you'll find the unplaced units fast.

[Panzer76]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jager:

The list would be excellent

It would be good to be able to mark the units (in the list) that you have placed on the map. So you'll find the unplaced units fast.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It has been discussed before, and the answer was negative, can't remeber all the arguments though, do a search.

As for the drilling bit, yes, COMBAT drilling is a must, where you learn to react fast and efficently to orders, but the thing I was talking about was PARADE drill, which is just silly IMO.

[elalamein]

Maybe because I am British and thus possibly considered old fashioned but parade is important.

When on parade do you look your best? Yes of course, this gives pride in yourself, your colleagues and most importantly your unit.

Does parade help with discipline? Yes you have to obey commands and act as a cohesive unit, to learn your own job and to rely that your pals are all doing their own.

No doubt the modern countries will now answer in droves stating it has no modern use..but consider this, what class does your average grunt come from? Discipline and following order has to start some where.

I personally enjoyed being on parade, I felt proud and my family were very proud of me...my gradfather was close to tears as it reminded him of his own service days.

What a better way to show the public what the new recruit can now do.

Parade is Good...so there!

[Mannheim Tanker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elalamein:

Maybe because I am British and thus possibly considered old fashioned but parade is important.

When on parade do you look your best? Yes of course, this gives pride in yourself, your colleagues and most importantly your unit.

Does parade help with discipline? Yes you have to obey commands and act as a cohesive unit, to learn your own job and to rely that your pals are all doing their own.

No doubt the modern countries will now answer in droves stating it has no modern use..but consider this, what class does your average grunt come from? Discipline and following order has to start some where.

I personally enjoyed being on parade, I felt proud and my family were very proud of me...my gradfather was close to tears as it reminded him of his own service days.

What a better way to show the public what the new recruit can now do.

Parade is Good...so there!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Drilling just for the sake of drilling is bit of overkill. However, I ask you this: take two large groups of troops (say around a company) and move them from the barracks to the theater for a briefing. One group moves in a big gaggle, while the other group moves in formation.

Question: which group looks more professional?

If the onlooker is another soldier, the appearance may not make a big difference. If the onlooker is someone not associated with the military, however, the formation makes a better impression.

Just my $.02.

[Triumvir]

I came from a Commonwealth pattern army, so I know just how much square bashing the Brits do. There is something to the idea of showing your best on parade -- but I prefer to think of armies as necessary evils, which should exist only to crush their enemies as quickly as possible, so that their soldiers can go back to being civilians.

All the discipline you learn on parade can be taught in the field, and more -- is it harder to stand ramrod straight on a parade square for two hours, or is it harder to keep on going in the thirteenth kilometer of the sixteen klick route march? Which gives you more pride at the end? I've done both, and surviving the route march made me feel a lot better than the rest.

As for relying on your pals, try setting up camouflage for any vehicle and I guarantee you that it takes more reliance on your pals than doing a perfect shoulder arms.

I'd rather have instead of a parade a battle course where the new recruits come staggering back after their eight mile advance to contact, with their parents and friends looking on as they leap and bound up a hill, relying on each other's aim and ability.

War is nasty, dirty, unpleasant, and recruits should be so damn good at it that they have to do it as little as possible -- and what better way to prove that to themselves and those that they will protect than to actually put that training into practice?

The corporals stripes I got after a four klick forced march to the top of a hill meant a whole lot more to me than the beret I put on for passing out when I was a recruit. The "parade" we did at the top of the hill was sloppy compared to the perfection of our passing out; but it meant that I was a soldier, not a dressing dummy.

[elalamein]

When undergoing training do you start with basics or do you get thrown straight into the deep end?

Parade and drill has a part to play in army life as a form of a steping stone to various skills that require to be learnt.

For example the most important thing about being in the field is personal hygiene, i.e ensuring that you do not make yourself a casualty. Caring for ones own appearance and uniform when on parade is a gives the natural progression into ensuring that field kit is kept clean and usable.

I do agree that successfully completed rigorous excercises can give more satisfaction but new raw recruits need to be set easy to follow tasks that progress them without overwhelming them.

As previously posted about appearance, the onlooker will want to see a professional well trained body of soldiers and what a better way to demostrate this than perfect drill procedure!

[Mace]

Parade drill has it's place, but not in CMBO IMHO.

If you study any literature, troops didn't move into the battlefield in a tight parade, but in dispersed fashion.

This limited the likelyhood of a well placed artillery shell or sprung ambush taking out the whole unit.

[elalamein]

Quite correct...anyone seen the footage during WWI when an artillery shell decimated a cavalry unit?

[Richard Morgan]

El Al - Saw it at the Imperial War Museum. BTW my C.S.M. told me that I was a Sergeant Major's nightmare, but a bloody good field soldier - I took that as a compliment,

Cheers,

Richard.

[CaSCa]

I fear that some of you are missing the point.

I am not asking for parade ground drill during the game nor do I want to deploy my troops to their final positions with perfect symmetry. My men get as virtually dirty as anyone elses.

What I would like is a way to get the troops into nice straight lines and all formed up pretty as I marshall and inventory them. Commands along the lines of 'align column' or 'make space equal'. They only need to be available during the setup phase.

It's a rather stupid idea, I admit, and will likely never be implemented. But it would be nice to view my army prior to the fray and feel that I was leading Patton's best and not the Dirty Dozen.

[ 08-24-2001: Message edited by: CaSCa ]

[David Aitken]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>CaSCa wrote:

my canned vegetables are not aligned in alphabetical order in my kitchen cabinets<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, you must be the only one! Right guys...?

Sorting out your units at the beginning is half the fun of the game! If the computer did it for you, that would be just like the computer playing the whole game for you! Any commander worth his salt ought to get up in the morning with only one thought in his mind: How much sorting of units in CM can I do today? Never mind the fighting, war is all about SORTING!

Now, where is my Bowl, Breakfast, For the consumption of...? I must be ready for action in minutes three.

[Panzer Leader]

Say what you will, but the Israeli's are the most battle-ready, battle-WORTHY army on the planet right now.

God, that Merkava is a work of ART! If I didn't have a healthy peace-loving respect for human life and all, I would like to see a good war just to see those Israelis PERFORM!

[Fieldmarshall]

Parade for the Nazis must have been hell! Goose stepping on concrete for hours on end....but at least they had catchy music...Der Konigratzer!... ALSO you should look at some of the marches of African armies...haha they hop and skip and chant HAHAH HAHAHA funny

[Letsbe Ave.]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CaSCa:

I fear that some of you are missing the point.

It's a rather stupid idea, I admit, and will likely never be implemented. But it would be nice to view my army prior to the fray and feel that I was leading Patton's best and not the Dirty Dozen.

[ 08-24-2001: Message edited by: CaSCa ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shame, shame! We NEED this in order to do proper medal awards ceremonies, and also to properly simulate Patton addressing the troops...

[Gen. Sosaboski]

Yes, and also to simulate the Mosquitoes of the RAF disrupting a ceremonial parade in Berlin. (Yes, it happened. I believe it (the parade) was for Hitler's 10th Anniversary as Fuhrer and was organized by Goering.)

[Hanns]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Letsbe Ave.:

Shame, shame! We NEED this in order to do proper medal awards ceremonies, and also to properly simulate Patton addressing the troops...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sweet! Can I also sneak my elite sharpshooters into range while Ol' Blood and Guts prattles on? How many points is a General worth........

[Tread Head]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elalamein:

Maybe because I am British and thus possibly considered old fashioned but parade is important.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen brother! You tell them, I got your back!

[Tread Head]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzer Leader:

God, that Merkava is a work of ART!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I have played a war game or few with the Big M while I served. Any tank that can launch morter rounds, crap crunchies out of its butt, and move almost as fast as me..... Scares me.