Gunny Bunny Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 I have noticed that the allied armour is becoming far to powerful. The German armour is getting massacered. Does anyone else find this ?? http://www.geocities.com/combat_mission1/Charter.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>- Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 Yup seems like those Shermans have turned into Abrams. Its very scary out there for the Krauts these days. Nothing is safe but the KT and maybe Hetzer cuz of its great slope. If your playing the Germans on defense ask for Infantry or Mechanized. CA is not worth it. Germans have to get gamey now. Swarm the allies with AT guns and cheap 75mm HTs, and pray the AI gives you lots of case rds. Those Shermans are chopping through that Krupp steel like butter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfLord Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 Yes, very much so. The allies increased use of tungsten (and ungodly accuracy) plus the changing of the armor points in QB CA MEs has made Axis armor tactics an exercise in hair pulling. Especially in the 1000pt QBs. I have not been playing CM nearly as much as I once was due to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 Seems that every time BTS does something to make the game run better, like have Allied tanks use their tungsten rounds, the fans of German tanks howl. I don't believe I've ever heard anyone complain about the German tanks getting better. Now, you can't just park the German tanks on hilltops and watch them shrug off shot after shot. You need to use realistic strategies, such as waiting in ambush to flank advancing tanks, and narrowing fields of fire so only one tank can shoot back at a time. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. -Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 Rather than worry about how unfair things are, or should be, or were, I will merely say this: BTS has recognized a bug in the Tungsten penetration routines, and will be fixing it for 1.1.1. IIRC, this should result in agreater chance of T rounds ricocheting of sloped armor. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstersss Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 No, I haven't noticed this. In fact, I just played one of Rune's scenarios and the German armor was only defeated via side impacts, unless it was the 17 pounder on the Firefly. I don't understand where this whole rumor started, as it has no basis in fact in any game I've recently played. ------------------ "My mortar refuses to fire! He's Yellow!" -Me "Send him to CM2." -Mace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunny Bunny Posted January 21, 2001 Author Share Posted January 21, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 109 Gustav: Seems that every time BTS does something to make the game run better, like have Allied tanks use their tungsten rounds, the fans of German tanks howl. I don't believe I've ever heard anyone complain about the German tanks getting better. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I just want a more level playing field. I lost two Tigers and one Panzer while the allies only lost one Sherman which I had hit three times. The Allies had so much armour left the game became like "shooting ducks in a barrel" that's not fun to play or watch. Regards, GB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfLord Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 Setup the following test: 8 Panther Gs(late) or replace 3 Panthers w/ Tigers, against 5 M36 Jacksons and 5 M18 Hellcats. All regular crews. Make sure they are at least 1000m apart and the terrain empty and flat. Ive ran this test 25 times. The result for all 25 has been the elimation of all German armor w/in the first 2 turns with maybe 3-7 Allied TDs destroyed. Axis armor being knocked out with one hit only...very low rate of ricochets or breaking up. However, as Jeff stated, this may be corrected in the next "tungsten" patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 In CM battles, esp. QB we see quite unhistoric forces. For a proper effect, get your enemy to play with 75mm or so. Reality is that German tanks, when faced with a platoon of 76ers or 17lb armed Fireflies -were- in trouble. History shows that this wasn't often the case. PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstersss Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WolfLord: Setup the following test: 8 Panther Gs(late) or replace 3 Panthers w/ Tigers, against 5 M36 Jacksons and 5 M18 Hellcats. All regular crews. Make sure they are at least 1000m apart and the terrain empty and flat. Ive ran this test 25 times. The result for all 25 has been the elimation of all German armor w/in the first 2 turns with maybe 3-7 Allied TDs destroyed. Axis armor being knocked out with one hit only...very low rate of ricochets or breaking up. However, as Jeff stated, this may be corrected in the next "tungsten" patch.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> First Try I just did this, my results were: 3 immobilized Panthers 1 Knocked Out Panther 1 Abandoned Panther All allied tanks except 1 destroyed in the first round. Second Try 5 Panthers Abandoned or Destroyed. All allied tanks abandoned or destroyed in first round. Third Try 4 Panthers Abandoned or Destroyed. 1 Panther gun damaged All but one allied tanks abandoned or destroyed by the second round. I will update and ammend with results from further tests. Your theory does not hold water. ------------------ "My mortar refuses to fire! He's Yellow!" -Me "Send him to CM2." -Mace [This message has been edited by Elijah Meeks (edited 01-21-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacky Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 WolfLord: I just setup 6 Panther G's Versus 5 M-10's and 5 Hellcat's All with regular crews, so the points are equal. @ 1300+ meters, up to 1400 meters. Results: 2 Panther G's survive. Second test: 2 Panther G's survive. Most of the hits were ricochets with a few shell break ups. Time frame is set to December 1944. Here are the screen shots: Let me be the first to say these tests are hog-wash since this sort of situation is beyond rare. I did these two tests to see if US TD's are truly that good at long range. Seeing that the odds are 10:6, I figured the US TD's would overcome the Panthers. I was grossly wrong. BTW, I'm using version 1.1. [This message has been edited by Lacky (edited 01-21-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted January 21, 2001 Share Posted January 21, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gunny Bunny: I have noticed that the allied armour is becoming far to powerful. The German armour is getting massacered. Does anyone else find this ?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No, not unless I use totally, beyond stupid tactics or play QBs with people who insist on buying unrealistic force makeups. Avoid one or the other, or even better both, and you won't have any problems. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gunny Bunny: I have noticed that the allied armour is becoming far to powerful. The German armour is getting massacered. Does anyone else find this ?? http://www.geocities.com/combat_mission1/Charter.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Gunny Bunny -- you may also want to try and put some tests, figures, something to your comment. Every week since CM version 1 a post comes up that says Germans are getting geeked. On the ladders it is not so -- if anything there are many ladder players who play German only in order get the big tanks. So perhaps it would be useful to come up with some data. Even Lucky's shootout test is better than nothing. Of course, it only represent tank power, and we know that allied tanks are less effective point for point than axis in the game in tank duels, but some sort of data supporting your position would be useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfLord Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 Well, undoubtedly my game was bugged (LOL) as I reported what I observed. However, I just reformated my HDD this weekend and will run the tests again. I will not flood the board with screnshots but I'll post what the results are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Napoleon1944 Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 I find this to be true. If the German armour was what it should be the ratios in QBs would make sense. ------------------ The only enemy I fear is nature. -Napoleon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnL53 Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 While I have not set up a test-- in playing "Holiday Bank" and I lost three tanks at the ranges up to 1789 meters and got nothing ( I have not finished that one yet)-- In Whitmann at Villers Bocage-- I usually do not last long as the Germans but when I play as the Brits-- the game usually goes the distance-- with about two to one in kills in favor of the Germans-- In Paderborn when I gave the computer +3 I was killed easily-- but not until then -- I have version 1.05 btw it seems to me that with more experince to the AI his armor ( tigers) become much harder to kill than at none or +1 etc. they seem to resist being penetrated- although I realize that should not be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 Slapdragon wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Every week since CM version 1 a post comes up that says Germans are getting geeked.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Truer words have never been spoken I can safely say that the biggest quantity of compaints we have had about CM's "realism" comes from people playing as the Germans and not winning. This has been true since the first Beta Demo, well over one year ago. No facts, no figures, not quantifiable tests to prove their case. Just "I lost my King Tiger, and I shouldn't have because it is a King Tiger". Folks... all things being equal if you use bad tactics you will most likely lose against the AI or a decent player. It doesn't matter if you have King Tigers or Sherman 75s, although you can generally make more mistakes with a KT than a Sherman. Using vehicles to their best abilities is the key to victory. My standard answer to anybody that says "German stuff is too weak" is "prove it". Present us a compelling case as to what we might be doing wrong and we will look into it. But be forewarned, if the "compelling case" is "I parked my KT on an exposed hill 300m away from 5 Shermans, and lost" there will be no changes made to the system Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 01-21-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 I think I missed the part in the Rulebook where it says if you play the Germans you automatically win. I guess that's what I've been doing wrong all this time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 its not just the Allies that now get more first shot hits. I have played with Panthers and other German tanks and found that there are more first shot hits and there is great short range accuracy. Charles has admitted he will look at the HVAP tungsten penetration calculations (as per Rexford's request) against sloped armour. There are now more first shot hits and if the Allied tanks are quick and fire first they are certainly more leathal if they use their tungsten. I am enjoying the game NOW more then ever. Thanks agian to Charles and Steve for their unwavering dedication to historical accuracy. -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther131 Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 The "german armor is skewed" topic is one thing, but point allocation is another. I would love BTS to weigh in on the armor points1.1 redux thread. I have never claimed that german armor is not up to snuff. I think its more then admirable and works great when used in the right way. However when will BTS weigh in on the the more important thread? I am tired of this kind of thread as well, but there are good points being made / brought up in the other armor points 1.1 redux thread. I am not even quite sure why BTS has even entered this pointless kind of thread, after all there is no scientific data backing up this "allied armor is too powerful, but I have nothing else to say except I lost a Tiger to a sherman 75". Geeesh!!! Come on, check out the real thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w: I am enjoying the game NOW more then ever. -tom w<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Me too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 Tom, The Tungsten vs. highly sloped armor fix is already in 1.12 (not released yet). Rexford's points were valid. So if you are in a Panther at decent range you will probably see Tungsten rounds bouncing off. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvet Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Clark: Me too! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Me too too! Or is it me three? I just started playing multi-player and am enjoying the hell out of it. I've played the Germans three times and won each time. My German armor wasn't "cannon fodder" for the Allies at all, and I'm hardly a tactical genius. I think people just got used to having German armor having an easy time of it, and now that the Allied tanks use their tungsten rounds more often they aren't coping with it very well. The points allocation issue is another matter. ------------------ Craig "Only a madman would consider the possibility of war between the two states (France and Germany), for which, from our point of view, there is no rational or moral ground." - Chancellor Adolf Hitler, Oct. 14, 1933 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted January 22, 2001 Share Posted January 22, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Tom, The Tungsten vs. highly sloped armor fix is already in 1.12 (not released yet). Rexford's points were valid. So if you are in a Panther at decent range you will probably see Tungsten rounds bouncing off. Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> GREAT! Thanks for the VERY prompt reply! -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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