frozen engines

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

Never played ASL, so I don't know exactly what they were up to with that, but it sounds vaguely bogus to me. Only think I can think of that would justify exactly that kind of treatment would be ice and frozen mud forming in the running gear while it was motionless.

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Late German tanks in particular had a really tough time in snow and mud. The layered road wheels made it easy for mud or snow to jam in between the wheels and stop them from turning. I've seen numerous pictures of Tigers operating with the outer front wheel removed so it's easier to clean out the mud globs from the drive sprocket.

[chrisl]

A couple of comments based on having just toured the oilfields at Prudhoe Bay, Alaska (where it gets way cold):

They can make a low-temp grade of diesel that doesn't gel until much lower temps than the usual stuff. I don't remember exactly what temp, but it was ~-40. I also don't know if the technology was available in 1940s Russia.

In PB they use a lot of diesel pickups, and once the outside temp drops to a certain level, they leave them on the rest of the winter and use the plug-in engine heaters, since diesels don't apparently produce enough heat when idling to keep them warm without additional help.

[Enoch]

I had a diesel car when I was in high school. there was an additive you could put in the tank that would help reduce the gelling of the fuel. I also would have to plug the engine block in in extreme cold. Nothing like going over to a friend's house, knocking on the door with an extension cord and asking if you can plug your car in.

Keeping the car running would not prevent the gelling of the fuel since the fuel tank is in the back while the engine is in the front. This might work for tanks however.

Again though, most of this is likely out of the scope of CM. tanks with engine problems simply wouldn't make it to the battle. I do like the suggestion of perhaps a random chance that some armor might not make it to the battle.

[Doug Beman]

How many German tanks had diesel engines? I'm pretty sure neither Panther nor Tiger did.

Most Soviet tanks did, I believe, at least the KV (and variants) and T34 did.

DjB

[Schrullenhaft]

I can't add anything to the technical/chemical discussion of diesel fuel. Are batteries used for the 'glow plugs', etc ? If so, then the electrolytes of batteries might also be an issue (in extreme cold), but I'm not sure of that.

I do see some worth in simulating some engine/mechanical failures within CM's scope (in my opinion):

1) (Previously proposed) - AFV/Vehicluar reinforcements would have a random chance of not appearing (being attrited from original scenario-designed strength) for extreme weather conditions.

2) AFVs/Vehicles on the defense should have a random chance of being immobilized, having frozen turrets (if that is codeable with the current engine) and other mechanical malfunctions at the start of the scenario or operation battle. This would be especially true for scenarios/operation battles occuring in early morning or evening.

In terms of weapons:

1) Slower responding off-board artillery (and/or lower ROF) to simulate extreme weather effects on artillery units.

2) On-board guns (AFVs/Artillery/AT weapons) would also have a chance of jamming/malfunctioning and/or reduced ROF.

3) The obvious problems with MGs with high jamming rates (initially ?) and lower ROF to prevent jamming (dependent on experience/fitness level or morale state ?).

The chance of suffering from some of these extreme weather effects could/should be tied to an overall ('averaged') fitness level that will be new to CMBB (rather than any 'national'-based qualifier; i.e. Soviets won't suffer from these problems to the extent that Germans will, etc.). The chance of certain AFVs or guns suffering these effects could be tied directly to the crew's fitness level rather than a 'global' fitness level. I think that would be the most accurate way to simulate the efforts taken to keep AFVs and weapons protected from the effects of extreme cold.

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Schrullenhaft:

1) (Previously proposed) - AFV/Vehicluar reinforcements would have a random chance of not appearing (being attrited from original scenario-designed strength) for extreme weather conditions.

2) AFVs/Vehicles on the defense should have a random chance of being immobilized, having frozen turrets (if that is codeable with the current engine) and other mechanical malfunctions at the start of the scenario or operation battle. This would be especially true for scenarios/operation battles occuring in early morning or evening.

In terms of weapons:

1) Slower responding off-board artillery (and/or lower ROF) to simulate extreme weather effects on artillery units.

2) On-board guns (AFVs/Artillery/AT weapons) would also have a chance of jamming/malfunctioning and/or reduced ROF.

3) The obvious problems with MGs with high jamming rates (initially ?) and lower ROF to prevent jamming (dependent on experience/fitness level or morale state ?).

The chance of suffering from some of these extreme weather effects could/should be tied to an overall ('averaged') fitness level that will be new to CMBB (rather than any 'national'-based qualifier; i.e. Soviets won't suffer from these problems to the extent that Germans will, etc.). The chance of certain AFVs or guns suffering these effects could be tied directly to the crew's fitness level rather than a 'global' fitness level. I think that would be the most accurate way to simulate the efforts taken to keep AFVs and weapons protected from the effects of extreme cold.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

this is more along the lines of what i had in mind. these aspects would, IMO, add some nice realism to the game. sure the game would still be the best game ever without it, but maybe it could profit from this being modelled.

[Lars]

Regarding MG’s jamming in cold weather, this is also a problem for rifles. It is due to the lubricant freezing up and jamming the firing mechanism. The typical low tech solution is to clean the rifle completely and go with no lubricant whatsoever.

I’ve had this problem ONCE. Never again. A light spray of WD-40 to prevent rust and nothing else.

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lars:

Regarding MG’s jamming in cold weather, this is also a problem for rifles. It is due to the lubricant freezing up and jamming the firing mechanism. The typical low tech solution is to clean the rifle completely and go with no lubricant whatsoever.

I’ve had this problem ONCE. Never again. A light spray of WD-40 to prevent rust and nothing else.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't forget the quick fix: urine. It's almost always available and will thaw most jams temporarily.

[tss]

Lars wrote:

Regarding MG's jamming in cold weather, this is also a problem for rifles. It is due to the lubricant freezing up and jamming the firing mechanism.

Where's also a nice and easy way to freeze a non-lubricated (and also lubricated) rifle:

Take it inside your heated dugout. The moisture (and there will be a lot of it nearly always) in the air will condensate on the weapon, and when taken back out will freeze.

- Tommi

[c3k]

Gents,

Sorry to go off-tangent and take this thread away from high-school winter memories, but here are some items I've gleaned from some of my readings.

1. In '41, the lubricant in the transaxle of some German trucks froze, WHILE IN MOTION (!), resulting in the drive shaft snapping. (For the less mechanically inclined, the transaxle is the chunk of metal between the rear wheels which changes the driveshaft rotation to wheel rotation.)

2. The Germans learned that the only way to increase the winter reliability of their machineguns was to use a lighter oil and to have the gunner remove the firing bolt and keep it warm, near his skin.

3. Due to exhaustion, fatigue, and possible malnourishment, the Germans gradually reduced the amount of time an individual would stand guard during the night. The rest of the unit would be in shelter. The guard would go outside with some heated rocks in his pockets (as well as the coveted warm firing bolt). They reduced the time, in steps, from 1 hour to 5 minutes. Even at just 5 minutes exposure, men still died from the cold.

Again, interesting facts from first hand accounts.

Ken McManamy

[Chad Harrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by c3k:

Even at just 5 minutes exposure, men still died from the cold.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

is that going to be modelled accuratly in CM2? since we will still be able to play at night, will a night heavy snow battle leave some riddled bodies and some frozen ones? yes i know theres the fitness factor, but will there be loses for being outside of buildings? proboably hard to code something like that, but i just want to know what little candies we can expect soon!

thanks fellas!

[Bertram]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I can't add anything to the technical/chemical discussion of diesel fuel. Are batteries used for the 'glow plugs', etc ? If so, then the electrolytes of batteries might also be an issue (in extreme cold), but I'm not sure of that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Batteries are used now, but not then. I live on a boat with a vintage '34 diesel engine (a 21 PK Lister). The glow plugs are just bolts of iron, screwed into the machine housing. You wind a cord around them, soaked in a flammable, and light it to get them glowing hot (actually I use a spray can of Nitro in the air intake, but that's cheating).

Bertram

[ 08-03-2001: Message edited by: Bertram ]

[Lars]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss:

Where's also a nice and easy way to freeze a non-lubricated (and also lubricated) rifle:

Take it inside your heated dugout. The moisture (and there will be a lot of it nearly always) in the air will condensate on the weapon, and when taken back out will freeze.[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, I've run into this one also. My buddy brought his rifle inside for the night. He missed a twelve point buck the next morning. Damn near broke his finger yanking on the trigger to try and get it to work. We in deer camp, were, of course, very sympathetic to his plight.

It’s also a good way to fog the hell out of your scope. Just a tip, folks. Leave your rifle outside.

[Skipper]

> They reduced the time, in steps, from 1

> hour to 5 minutes. Even at just 5 minutes

> exposure, men still died from the cold.

Couple of quotes:

"There is no such thing as a bad weather - only a bad equipment"

/russian hikers saying, which is fully confirmed by my own experience/

"True siberian is not the one who does not fear cold - it is the one who dresses well"

/siberian saying/

German army simply lacked winter clothing. I don't remember exact figures, but somewhere I've read that the plan in 1941 was to provision winter clothing for only 10 or 15% of Wehrmacht manpower. An intention was to finish everything before October.

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Beman:

How many German tanks had diesel engines? I'm pretty sure neither Panther nor Tiger did.

Most Soviet tanks did, I believe, at least the KV (and variants) and T34 did.

DjB<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think the Germans ever made a diesel tank. They make good sense for tanks, especially with the Germans fuel hungry kitties.

[PeterNZer]

I'm too lazy to check now, but IIRC the Maus had a diesel engine. WEll, it doesn't count anyways..

[tools4fools]

From the diary of Joachim Scholl, a Tiger commander in Russia:

"9th October 1943

Our Tiger froze solid today. They had to ue a flamethrower to melt the mud & ice off the drive sprockets. Ulrich stole a portable heater from the luftwaffe liason hut. I dont think they will be pleased but it fits nicely in our rommel kist. Got the barrels on the MG changed & took out a Russian Artillery battery with Paul . It was so easy we just drove up to the top of the ridge & shelled them. It was good to see those annoying guns blow to pieces. I really liked the secondary explosions from their ammunition. I'm sure that must have taken a good few out.

10th October 1943

Paul & I have been given the job of taking out more artillery batteries. We have been give three halftracks full of Pioneers from the division to help us. The luftwaffe have shown us the positions of two Stalins organs batteries on the ridge about 10 kilometres south west.

We hit the rocket sites easily what a fireball they went up with. Paul said he aimed for a funny looking bunch of trucks which we think carried the rockets. They took out everything & melted the snow in a big circle. The Pioneers did well taking out the infantry with help from us.11th October 1943We have been frozen up. The temp dropped to 20 below last night. The fuel has frozen in the engine & the tracks are all iced up. There is a blizzard blowing now. I dont think the Russians will attack today. I wish I had gone to Africa.

12th October 1943

We are still frozen in. the snow is so deep it is making moving about difficult. The cossacks attacked this morning but we fought them off. I have heard were being pulled back to Kiev soon. We have big heaters round the Tiger trying to unfreeze us."

For more see "Tiger tales" at

http://www.panzer-vi.fsnet.co.uk

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lars:

Regarding MG’s jamming in cold weather, this is also a problem for rifles. It is due to the lubricant freezing up and jamming the firing mechanism. The typical low tech solution is to clean the rifle completely and go with no lubricant whatsoever.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ISTR the Germans adopting powdered graphite as a winter lubricant on their rifles/MGs.

Michael

[ryddle]

Wow, some of the comment mentioned about working the cold sure have brought back memories. I'm a cannucker and I've "done time" in the far north working on and around heavy equipment. Once it gets around -20 things start acting weird with equipment. Everything has to be babied. No hope at all about chipping off the ice from around the rollers at that temperature. If you leave them frozen you will actually square off your rollers from the friction of the chain dragging across them. We ended up taking old parachutes and draping them over the dozer's and let the propane torches go for the night. At minus 40 or thereabouts things start leaking in odd spots and seals crack. One location we worked in only had 18 frost-free days a year. Yuck. I'm sure that many of the inconvenient aspects of working with tracked vehicles will be abstracted in combat mission, but one thing that I always found surprising was how tracked vehicles behaved on ice. I've never seen a pad from a tank, but on 'dozers they frequently have a raised bar (grouser) that runs along the width of the pad (perpendicular to the direction of motion). Excellent traction in normal conditions. Once you are on ice, however, you have one of these grousers for each pad on the ice pointing perpendicular to the direction you want to go. So what happens when you put a 40 tonne tank on skates? Yup, big iron just SLLLLLIIIIDDEEESSS uncontrollably on almost any slope. Any angle that you don't approach head on will send you sliding faster and faster to the stumps, rocks, whatever. Nice way to immoblise yourself very quickly and dammage your track. Even going up a moderate slope head on can cause much greif. One track has to slip just a bit and you start spinning down the hill. If tanks didn't have grousers... they wouldn't be able to do much. (perhaps they welded knobbies on or something?) Anyone know what they used for ice?

So, what would be interesting? It would be cool if BTS would put in a slope calculation to dramatically increase the chance of a pnzr loosing control. A game of 'spin the tank' anyone? Anyone trying to get a nice 'hulled-down' position would just as likely have their panzer spin 90-degrees and sit at the bottom of a gully with nothing to shoot at.

fwiw,

-R