Worthless Infantry

[Freyland]

I love this game. I am a staunch supporter. That being said, I need to bitch about my infantry in CE. At one point, I had a platoon run out 50 meters to engage a sherman, whose commander was just killed by a supporting squad, whom I had directed to attack the Sherm because it has a faust. The latter squad, after killing the commander, turned to shoot at infantry instead of PF'ing the tank at 75 meters. Meanwhile, the other squads, with platoon commander, ran out next to the tank as directed, but then promptly turned and ran back into the woods at the first sign of light fire. Completely wasted an easy kill.

Later, a panzershreck unit ran out from cover to nail a Sherman at 75m but again ran at the first evidence of fire (no shells). What takes the cake, however, was that three squads sneaking through the woods waltzed right be a bazooka team who apparently was looking for the bathroom. Each squad targeted him, but no one fired a shot.

I can (sorta) accept my troops acts of cowardice since they are all green or conscripts, but the sneak problem is beyond me. This particular PBEM game is falling apart quickly, and I do not need my troops to help me!

Okay, I feel better now. Thanks for listening. CM please come soon!

Jonathan

[This message has been edited by Freyland (edited 06-09-2000).]

[Stuka]

Hi Freyland, I've had the same problem using 'sneak' also.Obviously sneak lets your guys move stealthly around but it seems if they are under movement orders past the target they will continue to follow the movement order and not attack the target of opportunity. Target them yes but not shoot. I've had a 9 man squad sneak up to (5M distance) and past a HQ unit who proceeded to shoot my squad in the back as they sneaked quietly and slowly away (after targeting the HQ but not shooting)

My only suggestion is to use sneak only to approach an enemy then resort to run for the final attack.

Not much of an answer to your question but thats what i've come across and it's bloody annoying when it happens.

[dalem]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The latter squad, after killing the commander, turned to shoot at infantry instead of PF'ing the tank at 75 meters. Meanwhile, the other squads, with platoon commander, ran out next to the tank as directed, but then promptly turned and ran back into the woods at the first sign of light fire. Completely wasted an easy kill.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jonathan-

1. 75m is pretty extreme range for a panzerfaust 100, and out of range of all the rest of the PF types.

2. Takes more of a man than I'll ever be to run out into the open and face down a 30 ton metal monster with machineguns and a big cannon.

3. I would guess that "light fire" is no joke to the guys getting shot at.

Your best bet when trying to use infantry against still-mobile armor is to either

a) don't do it

do it from cover at close range

c) don't do it

d) do it with Veteran troops

e) don't do it

-dale

[BFCElvis]

I think Dale has it right. You are expecting green and conscript units to perform heroic acts.

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"To conquer death you only have to die" JC

[THumpre]

I feel your pain, but gotta tell ya, I have found the infantry to be very effective against the armor. Several times my 'shreck crews have toasted shermans when they wandered too close to some woods, hell I even had a squad 'faust one in a PBEM game. This game is only one that makes the infantry interesting and effective to play. I'm no great military genious but reall my only complaint is that I have beaten the AI every time, even giving them an advantage. Poop just happens, sometimes.

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No matter where you go, there you are.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Jonathan, I think this is mostly a case of unrealistic expectations of what your guys and weapons are capable of, as well as a lilttle bit of code problems with SNEAK (which we have already fixed for either 1.0 or 1.01).

It is totally unrealistic to expect Green troops to run out into exposed positions and "score an easy kill". If they were Vets they probably would, Regular *maybe*, but Green... almost no chance at all. If training and experience shouldn't play a strong role here, I don't know where they should. You are talking about a despirate tactic that requires a Hell of a lot of courrage and experience to pull off effectively. In theory your guys shouldn't even break cover to try and carry out your orders, but it is absolutely impossible for CM to predict what you are trying to do, so it can only react to bad situations after they manifest themselves.

Panzerschreck and Panzerfausts are meant to be used in ambush, not as Rambo weapons. Therefore you should expect that impropper use of the weapon will not yield favorable results, especially if crewed by sub standard troops.

Panzerfausts have some "setup" time, including prepping and aiming. Your guys shooting at infantry were providing cover for the PF guy while this was going on, but it looks like they were forced to high tail it because of poor position and overall poor support before they could let one loose. Also note that 75m is towards the outside effectiveness of the PF100, so this is a factor as well.

My advice to you is to go a LOT easier on your guys in general, and drastically reduce your expectations for Green units and PFs. I think you will be a lot happier if you do

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 06-09-2000).]

[Freyland]

Thanks for the reply, Steve (guys)

I know I am being hard on my little Germies, but as I stated in my first post, I recognize that they are inexperienced troops. I just needed to vent a bit ('cept the "sneak" issue, which just perplexed me to no end). The bottom line is I had just hoped my guys would toss a grenade at the tank while out there before running away -- the panzerfaust was "just in case" -- and I needed to vent about their failure. Sigh, back to getting torqued.

Oh, and by the way Steve? Please please please please please please please please please send us the game soon?

Jonathan

[Guest Big Time Software]

Hehe... me thinks you might not try that again any time soon These kinds of tactics basically only work with Regular or better troops, from behind or to the side of the vehicle, without enemy small arms fire sweeping the area. In other words, not your everyday type siutation

Steve

[Guest Big Time Software]

PFs are fired totally indepently of other small arms. So a squad can fire in one direction at infantry while still taking a PF shot in another direction at a tank (it's just one guy with the PF after all).

Charles

[Simon Fox]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>PFs are fired totally indepently of other small arms.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This might explain an interesting situation I had in a game once, I had a vet german squad with 1 guy left in the same turn take out a sherman with a faust and hose down a US squad with his MP40 in opposite directions. Could this be a possible bug? It was the beta so it might be fixed. The faust independence is OK when your squad has multiple members but isn't so realistic when there is only one guy left.

[Guest grunto]

in scenarios where you have lots of green squads especially with a nice mix of smg squads in there - and several pzk and mg42 units, i tend to use the squads as screens and try to get my pzk and mg42 units matched up at the right time/range. yes the schrecks and hmg units often roam together looking for the perfect spot to launch a high-firepower ambush from. the rifle and smg squads try to funnel the enemy into the heavy units.

as a german in a scenario like chance encounter you have a lot of chances for very short-range exchanges with the americans. with a lot of hmgs against infantry of pzks against tanks this can work out well for the astute german commander. what you probably can't do in that scenario is effectively engage american units with any of your infantry at more than 50 meters. you've got to come to grips with them in advantageous situations.

now for the stugs i've heard you want to engage at the longest ranges available. it seems to work though when you get a 3:1 stug:sherman with pzk support at 40 meters.

an astute german can trick an overeager american into such a mismatch.

[guachi]

In my first game of CE as the Germans vs AI (many moons ago) I was in a tough struggle in what turned out to be my closest game (about 55-45 victory).

The coolest part was near the end. One buttoned up Sherman near the road and two shattered VG squads hiding in smoke near the wall.

One squad had a faust left so I decided to rush the Sherman from behind with both squads and see what happened. I was hoping to see a faust used for the the first time vs a tank. I got one better. The squad with one faust threw a grenade at the Sherman and immobilized it.

It was sweet!

Jason

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Betas available to everyone are just publicity stunts anyways. -FK

[Murx]

I got some bad news, I had a PzSchrek Team lying in his foxhole (VoT) aiming at 225m ! (230m is max). First shot - failed, 2 Shermans returned fire with all out, even a 105mm Sherman from 70 degree to the left flank startet with all it had. Second shot - failed! All tanks still fired all they had !

And then the unthinkable - third shot - tank burned. It was a regular team. So what's the point?

Then the panzerfaust doesn't really take time to set it up, it's a oneway fast and easy to use weapon (for a got view on the weapon see "The Bridge - Die Bruecke"), just make sure no comrade is next to your rear, aim, fire all in all 5-10 sec.

But one thing really sucks. Each and every soldier had a weapon, not only a addon weapon like a PzSchrek, but a carbine or a pistol or a smg. So AT-teams should have carbines too. And the MG-squads, you don't need 6 men to handle a MG, even a HMG. One aims second (and maybe third) assist with ammo, but the 3-6th soldier is free to use his own weapon. MG squads should leave their MG when they route/panic in ???%. But they won't leave (most time) their personal weapon. Same goes for guncrews and mortars. Even vehicle crews! BTW I'm missing the AA-MGs on the tanks! And Pz crews not only got pistols. They got SMGs and if trained (or situation is not to bad) they will take one MG from the tank with them. The MG is not fixed build in! Its just a normal MG34 or MG42! and they would take it with them (if you bail out through the ground door there is enough time for the loader to get that weapon).

The crews in CM remind me of the crews in CloseCombat - they are of no use ! In CloseCombat you couldnt move them and in CM they aren't armed ...

And what about scavenging ! Ammo, grenades even weapons ! I would prefer less ammo in game if my soldiers were able to pick up / use weapons that are abandoned (through death or capture/panic).

OK, now I said it! Didn't found the right thread for this stuff and I'm hoping for a patch to patch this all up in CM

murx

(BTW I'm ordering now this great game!)

[Wayne]

In CE I've seen dismounted Sherman crews fire pistols.

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Blessed be the Lord our God who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight.

[JWorthing]

Murx,

*Do not take offense, only my opinion and observation*

That seems to be asking for too much. I think throughout development of this game and the dialog between the people in the forum and bts, these issues must have been raised. (don't know how long you've known about game).

All those things are neat but there are CPU issues and all that other stuff to consider.

I'd rather have accurate tank battles than crews with mgs.

Also, if i was a tanker guy and my tank just got shot and my commander was dead, I wouldn't try to get the mg34 to possibly fight with. I'd run towards my infantry and say goodbye.

*Do not take offense, only my opinion and observation*

[Freyland]

Hey Wayne,

In a PBEM game I have going with Black Sabot, the Sherman crew bailed from their flaming tank then chased down and killed the panzershreck that trashed their tank! Of course, I had to make them do it, but that is half the fun.

Jonathan

[Mikeydz]

Murx

About the tank crews taking thier SMG/MGs...

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/003853.html

To sum that thread up, while SMGs were carried in tanks usually, they were generally used when a tank crew left the vehicle for other duties. Most crews wouldn't take the time to unstow those weapons from storage in the tank if the tank just had a nice 88mm hole ripped into the side and might blow up any second.

About the scavenging of ammo, grenades, ect. Several old threads cover this. Grenades, p-faust, zook rounds, tank main gun rounds, and artillery rounds are done for the battle once they are used up. MG and infantry weapon ammo scavenging in loosely abstracted by the fact that these units do not run out of ammo. Once these units get a "low" ammo indication, thier firepower is curtailed quite abit, but they still can fire.

Not sure what your complain is with the Pfaust unit you had that killed the Sherman. If your thinking was that they probably should have been dead after the first short, then your right. Pretty much lucky that they got off a second shot, much less a third. If your point was that they should have hit from that range on the 1st or 2nd shot, then I doubt it. Considering that they were only normal experiance troops, fireing at a target at the extreme limit of the weapons range, then thier hit chance would understandably be low. If your argument is that they should have been able to fire off all 3 shots that they took in 5-10 seconds, then I doubt that too. Maybe 1 shot every 10 seconds, but considering they were under fire from 2 tanks, then even that would be pretty good on thier part.

Mikey

[Wayne]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freyland:

Hey Wayne,

In a PBEM game I have going with Black Sabot, the Sherman crew bailed from their flaming tank then chased down and killed the panzershreck that trashed their tank! Of course, I had to make them do it, but that is half the fun.

Jonathan<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That makes sense. The Sherman crew had their stash of Calvados in that tank and the Germans just toasted it for them.

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Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Murx,

All of the points you brought up have been discussed in detail. There are reasons why all of these things work the way they do. Some are because they need to work differently in the game, others because you are a bit mistaken about how things worked in real life (for example, PFs did have a setup time. Might have been as short as 6-10 seconds, but that counts in a 60 second turn).

Some of the things you mentioned are true, but irrelevant or too difficult to model realistically. German AA MGs were usually stowed inside the vehicle, and when external not used in a close combat situation as it would require a full torso exposure to small arms fire. The reason why a tank is armored is to protect the crew, which isn't possible if the tank commander is outside playing cowboy.

Secondary weapons for team weapons is true, but difficult to model. Since they aren't that important (i.e. one Kar98k firing at 200m isn't likely to hit anything) or are not realistically in use most of the time (the Panzerschreck assistant has enough things to do besides use his rifle), there lack of inclusion does not affect the game's realism.

In a perfect world I suppose we could do more with this, but our time is limited so if we bothered with this something else would not be done and somone would gripe about that. As evidence, CM simulates more little stuff, more realistically, than any other wargame out there but that hasn't stopped you from focusing in on the tiny things we left out

And this is one I am sick and tired of having to justify...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The crews in CM remind me of the crews in CloseCombat - they are of no use ! In CloseCombat you couldnt move them and in CM they aren't armed ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damn straight this is how it should work. Bailed out AFV crews are not some sort of instant SMG team, especially because each AFV generally only had ONE SMG with about 90 rounds of ammo.

The big issue is the one Mikeydz summed up; nobody is going to take the time to fumble out their SMGs when their tank has been hit. Sherman crews, for example, had about 5 seconds to bail out in earlier models. Have you seen how SMGs are stowed within an AFV? Strapped to the wall or at least not on the individual. So to have crews always bail out with their SMGs would be totally, utterly, and absolutely unrealistic. And to have them running around taking objectives as a super neat little fire team would be even worse. Anybody that has played wargames where there weren't heavy restrictions on crews could tell you dozens of stories of their unrealistic use. So that is the way it is.

As for a patch to address your questions... I wouldn't count on it

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 06-10-2000).]

[Wayne]

Since we're comparing games with games, in playing ASL ( long since neglected after I discovered CM ) I never used dismounted tank crews in the main battle unless they were defending themselves.

Another point to consider is that in real life,serviving tank crews were too valuable to be lost in combat. They were needed to crew the replacement tanks.

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Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wayne:

In CE I've seen dismounted Sherman crews fire pistols.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yes they do, and sometimes they even hit. In a game of LD I had a Bazooka team kill the Tiger by a frontal hit at 74m. The crew bailed and shot the bazooka team to pieces. I can understand that, they must have been miffed, probably thinking "In Close Combat, this would never have happened, what a load of s**te!"

Murx, I suggest having a look at Ken Tout's 'Tank!' - he was a tanker in Normandy and there are some descriptions of how his crew bailed in there. The last thing they seemed to have had on their mind was taking stuff with them, be it fags, guns or K-rations.

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Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

[DrD]

I bet that most crews who bail out feel like they've "done their bit" and aren't too into fighting anymore, kinda like when a soldier gets a relatively minor wound and says "OK I'm done for the day" which was the most common response. Of course there were exceptions but these were noteworthy enough to get medals.

[Jochen2]

Hey, i had this expirience in Ce once.

A Sherman was shot immobil by my Schreck in the church. The Sherm was standing only 30m in front of the first house in front of the church. My Schreck was killed by the Sherm using his MG.

I ordered two squads (one green, one regular) to run into that house, to take the Sherman out with their fausts. The first unit arriving was the green one. They get MG fire by the Sherm and didn´t managed to use their fausts. I was disapointed, and thought, that the use of fausts would be still not good enough. Suddenly my regular squad crawled to the left side of the house (there wasn´t enough room inside of it) and took the Sherman out with their panzerfaust. Yuppieeeeee!

I think this realistic! Green troops are very nervous and fail to use their fausts even under light fire.

Jochen

[Murx]

Sorry that I didnt read that thread on crew weapons

First of all - OK - this is a game and for the sake of CPU & Graphic power - there are limitations.

For tank crews I can say (as I m a tanker or better was on that neat Leopard 2 A1) you have the time to take your SMG or even MG when bailing out especially when the tank is just disabled and not under immediate additional fire. For the AA-MG its on the top all the time in war and its not more dangerous for the operator then it is for the commander so when a tank is used as a long range support at 500 m or more there is no real problem to operate it. There were on some tanks even additional front armor at these AA-MGs to operate them in closer combats.

For tank crews your right that in most cases they would retreat and get them new tanks. But especially the German gun crews with more then 3 or 4 crewman where used too (at least at that time of the war) to pick up their carbine and defend...

OK, I think I have - but I surely can live with the fact that crews are useless in this great game !!

Sorry that I sumbled over this game only a week ago else I would have been here much earlier

And as JWorthing wrote :

*Do not take offense, only my opinion and observation*

murx