Guest AggroMann Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 Was wondering two things. 1. Why there wasn't any bicycles modeled in CMBO, there were German Bicycle transported troops even during the battle of Normandy. and... 2. Are they going to be modeled in CM2?* *i know it's a bit early to ask but maybe someone knows... thanks ------------------ AGGRO-MANN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AggroMann: Was wondering two things. 1. Why there wasn't any bicycles modeled in CMBO, there were German Bicycle transported troops even during the battle of Normandy. and... 2. Are they going to be modeled in CM2?* *i know it's a bit early to ask but maybe someone knows... thanks <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> All the Allied paratroopers were transported into battle in Dakotas, but these aren't modeled. Ouside the scope. They did not ride their bicycles into battle. ------------------ Andreas <a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a > Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-04-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Steiner Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 You've definitely got a point there. Bicycles were extensively used by the Germans throughout the war, and especially towards the end when fuel was scarce. As for why they were not included in CM, that is more than likely because there just wasn't enough time to include them. But hopefully we will see them in CM2, along with motorcycle and horse troops.. ------------------ "Are you Sgt. Steiner? No, I'm Lili Marlene" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusm Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 Well since they were in ASL they should be in CM too . Every single unit in ASL should be added to the CM series to be frank. Now that we know we'll never get a better ASL replacement . I also want all the tiletypes from ASL included. I don't care if I have to upgrade to a Cray to run CM. Marcus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasd Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 They didnt ride the bikes into battle! What are we gonna have? Freakin bicycle battalions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Steiner Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 No, they didn't ride the bikes into battle, but they certainly did ride them right up to the battlefield, before dismounting. The bikes are just another means to transport troops, like trucks or anything else. I for one would like to see them, because they would speed up infantry movement tremendously, unless in wooded or rough terrain, of course.. ------------------ "Are you Sgt. Steiner? No, I'm Lili Marlene" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisl Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by marcusm: I don't care if I have to upgrade to a Cray to run CM. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You may have to. Pittsburgh just auctioned off an old Cray Y-MP C90 (16 GFlop_ for about $45K. It went to someone allegedly named "Steve Blank", a "self-described serial entrepreneur" who claims to be from silicon valley. He said "I'm interested in the history of technology and military history-- and this seemed to be the pinnacle of both" It was probably Steve Grammont, who wasn't feeling very creative when he came up with the fake name and home. "interested in military history" Yeah right, and he hauled the thing off with his Weasel. The Cray was cheaper than buying a used Panther, and probably more useful. Now we know what kind of machines we're going to have to buy to play CM-2, but man, the level of simulation is going to be unbelievable. Get a couple of 50" plasma displays and a good subwoofer.... You just better hope that whatever chip Apple uses next will come close. (note: all quotes above come from the Nov 2000 issue of Physics Today, on page 49) ------------------ Slayer of the Original Cesspool Thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AggroMann Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 "No, they didn't ride the bikes into battle, but they certainly did ride them right up to the battlefield, before dismounting." -SGT Steiner Exactly what i was thinking about, i've read accounts from Citizen Soldiers (an Ambrose book) where americans caught Germans as they were riding upto the front mounted on bicycles in morter fire and ambushes so i was wondering why they shouldn't be modeled, they would just be a much more common form of transportation than the halftrack or truck. The only problem i see would be the amount of bikes just parked about after the troops dismounted. supposing that an entire company or more was riding them. The same would go for horses and motorcycles though too. ------------------ AGGRO-MANN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AggroMann: Exactly what i was thinking about, i've read accounts from Citizen Soldiers (an Ambrose book) where americans caught Germans as they were riding upto the front mounted on bicycles in morter fire and ambushes so i was wondering why they shouldn't be modeled, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Because there is no point modeling a scenario around this? How many people do you know who use trucks to ride their infantry into battle in CM on a map? I have never seen anyone do this. If it is an ambush, the bicycles would be interesting for the first 10 secs and then be abandoned for the rest of the game. It is just pointless, except for the eyecandy value 'uh cool, there are gazillions of bikes lying around cluttering up my map'. Trucks and jeeps have a use as prime-movers or to quickly transport MG/mortar teams. Also, I doubt that bicycle batallions were that common. The most common way for the German infantryman to get into battle was to walk a very long way. ------------------ Andreas <a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a > Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-04-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Steiner Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 OK all you grogs out there, how about enlightening us on the extent of bicycle use by the Germans (and others) during the war. I have seen numerous photos of them, and do know that some recon platoons used them, but what about regular infantry? If their use was fairly extensive, then it would be neat to see them in CM2 (and definitely when the 1939/40 game comes out). ------------------ "Follow me, and I'll show you where the iron crosses grow" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AggroMann Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 Well i must say that modeling bikes, motorcycles and horses (for cavalry, not transport) would be more realistic, but for gameplay i must agree with Germanboy and others that they would just be plain annoying in CM. It's not that i wanted wanted them really badly to be modeled in the game, i was just wondering why they weren't modeled and if were going to be. ------------------ AGGRO-MANN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russellmz Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 i guess it could be modeled, the upside being the german "coolness" factor would go down considerably... seriously, i don't think it would be that good an addition. i read just one story where the germans were attacking while riding bikes in citizen soldiers. d-day i think the canadians carried them up the beaches and one story where a group of us soldiers tossed their commander's bike overboard. ------------------ "They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush "They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andrew Hedges Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 Bicycle troops, I think, can safely be done without, as their use in battle was limited. Also, SL/ASL had *rule* for bicycle troops, but I don't think that they had actual bicycle troop counters, so it's okay not put them in the game. . Also, that would avoid the danger of 15 page threads on how bike troops should have a higher close combat value than regular troops because they could transport extra grenades in the baskets of their bicycles. Although I will miss seeing what the mod makers could do with these troops. Especially the "rhino" bicycles used in Normandy. Motorcycle battalions present a different issue, I think, as there were lots of motorcycle battalions in early war Russian Front and they took part in many important battles, albeit dismounted. However, as cool as I thought it was that EF II modelled them, whenever I played scenarios with these troops, they always rode about 4 hexes into the game and then had to dismount and fight the rest of the scenario on foot. And of course they could never remount because the motorcycles were in a pile back on hex four, and there wasn't time to go back, get them, ride to hex 10, dismount, and fight again. But it may be that there were times when the fact that these troops had motorcycles was of tactical importance; if that's the case, then I suppose they should be represented. And the models should have goggles. I don't *think* that there was a time where the fact that troops had bicycles was of tactical importance, although I could be wrong. I can see it now: "The veteran tankers of the Third Shock Army rest easy at the foothills of the Carpathians, confident that they're safe from any sudden German counterattack. But these tankers' confidence is misplaced, as crack SS bicyclists silently coast downhill toward the tanker's laager, with panzerfausts strapped to their handlebars..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 What you all haven't heard of the Norwegian Bicycle Recconnaissance Brigade . It was formed in 1944, from the 3rd Mountian Div's 95th Reccon Bn & the 196th Div's 233rd Recon Bn and operated with XXth Mountian Corps. Anyway I could provide a list of Bicycle Kompanies etc, but it would be rather pointless as bicycles would play no part at CM's scale. Regards, John Waters ------------------ "We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field". Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945. [This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 11-05-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pham911 Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 Didn't they fix bayonettes and then use the bikes for jousting? I seem to recall seeing that somewhere. They'd wear puffy clothes and say things like, "Herr Weiss, Me thinketh that thou hath had too many tankards full of ale. Sig Heileth." I dunno. Maybe I'm getting this mixed up with something else. Actually, BTS is halfway to the bikes now. They just need the graphics, as they can use that damn "oil my wheels" squeak of the tanks if they just cut out the engine noise. Squeak squeak Squeak squeak Ding ding And, someone could make a mod for the bike troops so I could have a frenchman deliver bread to my front line soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 Bicycles would though work in a similar manner as horses in CM for a limited number and type of scenarios. Horses would just be another type of transport unit with movement penalties and rations, just like motorcycles, bicycles, wagons, pullkas, studebakers, etc. Not much use in combat, only useful in getting into and around combat, not much use (or at least very vulnerable) once in the area of the fighting. All of these units were probably left out because of utility / time in CM, and because in a 60 minute fight they are only going to be involved with things for a fraction of the fight. Of more interest is the various metacampaign variants for near FEBA tactical mobility, outside the scope of CM / CM2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 Yeah, that's it. The bicycle sound. Like the babbling brook sound, would be cool. You could have one of those cardboard flappers on the wheel, "flapitaflapitaflapitaflapita", "ringring, ringring". Someone would have to calculate the breakdown rate for thrown sprocket chains for the scattered trees terrain though. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 11-05-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 Crack SS bicyclists? Those would definetly be fun to have in battle. Just don't try to take them uphill!!! ------------------ And if we abandon any platform, I can assure you it will not be the Macintosh. -Steve My website! A major source of Wild Bill scenarios! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted November 5, 2000 Share Posted November 5, 2000 The Japanese probably used bicycles more (in the Malaya campaign) than any other army, in a tactical sense (they brought 6000 with them and purchased or took more in Malaya). The perfectly maintained asphalt roads through the jungle, built by the British, greatly facilitated the invasion. The invasion plan was virtually structured around the bicycle. They also were "caught" (observed) in transit by British and Australian soldiers, but the observers were hiding for their lives at the time. Some observed that the Japanese rifles were lashed across the handlebars and could not be quickly deployed. This was because they were not expected to ride into battle. The bicycles were left behind the scene of engagements, and carried forward by coolies or other local labor after the battle, where the infantry could remount and renew the pursuit. Each company had a 2-man bicycle repair squad. The high heat caused the tires to puncture easily, and when in pursuit of the retreating enemy the Japanese removed the tires and rode the rims on the asphalt. The seat had a compartment or sack which could accomodate 65-80 lbs. of gear, and the rider often carried an LMG plus his rifle. Masanobu Tsuji says they rode up to 20 miles per day on the advance, holding the bikes overhead when rivers were forded. In any case, you would not see them in CM's scale; they were only the means by which the troops got to the battle area, and the final advance was on foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 I don't care how historically accurate bike riding Nazi are. It is definately something that DOES NOT need to be modeled. In WWII guys bled when they were shot. Pieces of their bodies flew when they were blowed up. They turned black and crispy and smoked alot when they got fried. I don't see any of that. I'd say that is pretty historically accurate. But it isn't included in the game. So why do we need the Huffywaffe? Mord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 Hi all Although used a lot, I'm also in favour of not including bicycles sin CM. As for their usage, b/cs have been in use for troop transport by the Swedish army from WW2 or earlier, and well into the 1990ies. I, for one, did my military service in a bicycle unit (89-90). Combat biking is a fine but sadly neglected art form... One unit that does fit well into CM is the horse drawn artillery, for CM purpose mainly IGs. Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 I'd like to add one "me too" post on this thread. There's no reason to add bicycles to CM, because the troops would dismount immediately when the combat starts. There would also be an additional modeling problem because a mounted bicycle squad will be much more spread than unmounted. Finnish regulations were that there should be 50 meters space between each trooper. In practice, the distance would contract during a long ride to something like 5 - 10 meters or even less. A nine man squad with 5 meter distances will spread out to a 50 meter line. Finns used bicycle troops as a poor-man's replacement of motorized forces. Their strategic mobility was surprisingly good with the additional bonus that the bicycles could be carried through terrain that was impassable to trucks or halftracks. I seem to remember that Lt Keinonen's Jääkäri company "Pinna" (literally, "a pin") once carried their bikes over a 5 km wide marsh and then advanced quickly to Soviet rear along a small wagon trail. I don't remember details, though, so I may be wrong. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 I believe that 2/3rds of each Volksgrenadier division was bicycle mounted per the TO&E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 <*RING-RING*> <*RING-RING*> - What's that sound, Mac? - Ah, it's just the Schwinn-mounted Krauts' new battle cry. Scary huh? - Aw, my baby sister has the same battle cry. - Ya, well they're low on gas, you know, so they all ride now. It's also safer for the environment. Those Schwinn's don't emit the noxious fumes that can deplete our precious layer of ozone. You know, that's the only thing that protects us from the sun's harmful UV rays? - I didn't know that. That's very interesting. Does CM model the effects of diesel vehicles on the ozone? We sure do use a lot of them. - You know, I don't think they do, but they certainly should! I'm going to send them a letter telling them to stop work on TCP/IP and CM2 and shagging their wives, and get to work on modeling the ozone layer. How can they leave that out? Everyone knows that General Verner Von DippedinSchitz was killed by UV rays in the famed ozone collapse of 1944. Come on BTS, get on the stick! <*FLAP-FLAP-FLAP-FLAP-FLAP...*> - Now what's THAT sound? - Oh, they put baseball cards in their spokes, too. - Does CM model baseball cards? ------------------ "Nuts!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Steiner Posted November 6, 2000 Share Posted November 6, 2000 Ok guys, I can see that most of you don't want bicycle troops in CM. And it's doubtful that BTS will ever include them. But I (and some others in this thread) would still like to see them. I mean, those of you who don't want them could just leave them out of your scenarios. And for those of us who do, it would really add to the authenticity. But again, they're not likely to show up, so it doesn't really matter.. ------------------ "Natural body oils, combined with dirt, can keep you waterproof" -Krüger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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