Guest Capt_Manieri Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 Now, even before the first CM is released, I noticed that a lot of people on the board are talking about CM2. But the question is.......where should the theater be located? I guess they've so far narrowed it down to North Africa or the Eastern Front. Now, my opinion is definetly opt for North Africa. That'd be cool. Think of all the battles, Kasserine Pass, El Alamein and a whole bunch of fun stuff. Plus, I'd like to see what a CM German Afrika Korps soldier's uniform would look like. Probably pretty cool. Now the reason I really don't care for the eastern front in comparison to the North Africa scenario is that the eastern front theater doesn't allow for Americans to fight in this section of the war. To tell you the truth, I really don't care for the Russians or the Germans. I'd rather play as an American. Germans & Russians.......those would really be the only sides fighting in the eastern front....although I'm sure some other eastern european nationalities would be included. Bottom line, I think North Africa would be better. But it really doesn't matter what I think...... What do you all think would be better?? Make your opinions known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 (long, weary sigh) Please search. Answer follows in case you decide not to: It doesn't matter what we think, or which would be neater. CM2 will be East Front. BTS has stated that in many threads. DjB ps (altho I think Eastern Front is cooler. The variety of terrain and unit types is much higher (unless I'm mistaken, every vehicle the Germans produced except the PzI saw action in the East Front; North Africa saw almost exclusively late-IIIs & variants, IVs and a Tigers. The REALLY cool stuff didn't get produced until the Germans had already been kicked out of Africa) DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 It doesn't matter what people think Manieri IF you had used the SEARCH function we've all been telling you about you would have found numerous references telling you that CM2 WILL (note the definite statement there) be set in the Eastern Front. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Germans & Russians.......those would really be the only sides fighting in the eastern front....although I'm sure some other eastern european nationalities would be included. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sigh, Finns, Rumanians, Italians, Hungarian all sent multiple divisions to the Eastern Front. Spain had a fascist division of "volunteers" go. It was a far larger war than your history books in High School would lead you to believe. El Alamein... You do realise that no Americans fought there right? The same at El-Kibber, Snipe and most of the other actions there... Do you know of Prokhorovka, the Soviet drive on Kharkov and the desperate German defence of it? The counter-attacks, trench warfare in some regions of the front, cityfighting in others, mobile armoured warfare in others? I'm gonna stop before I go any farther but Manieri it is obvious you don't know much about the Eastern Front. Try to learn a bit more about it and you might see its interest. Last point... SEARCH. We've ALL told you about it PLEASE start using it sometimes before asking a question which proves you haven't even tried to use it. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 When I was younger and in High School the only aspect of the war that I liked was the West. However, through University I learned that the East was a much different and very interesting conflict. I would advise you to start researching it. I used to play games like Steel Panthers just by the British/Canadian side. It got to be boring after a while. Then I tried the Germans and Russians. They have just so many interesting types of vehicles and units! Indeed, the Desert might be neat, but, not quite as interesting as the vast battlefields of the East. You have dense city fighting, the Prippet Marshes, large open fields, heavy forests, killer weather, plus, many more units. The best aspect of the East front is that nobody has pure air superiority throughout the entire campain as in Western Europe or during most of the Africa Campain. Sure, this might be rehashing a lot of old stuff, but, with 16000+ posts, even with the search device makes finding these things easier, it is pretty tough to find a certain topic as the title doesn't always give away what is contained inside. Plus the poor guy has probably just recovering from, or is in the midst of puberty, something which really screws up our judgment process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JonS Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 Don't forget, guys, that the CM3/Mediterrean release is scheduled to included all the fighting in the Med - ie, all the battles in Tunisia, Sicily and Italy, which could definately NOT be classed as Desert. So, even if wide open spaces aren't your thing, there is still plenty of scope. Regards Jon ------------------ Ubique Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von shrad Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 The Spanish division Fionn refered to was the Spanish Blue Div. IIRC. They were not very well recieved by some German commanders who viewed them as lax. They then proved themselves time and time again. They took part in many battles around Lenningrad and were in the battle of Kransi Bor on FEB 10th '43, a day that came to be known by the Spanish as Black Wednesday. When the war began to go badly for the Axis, Franco leaned towards neutrality and the division was eventualy disbanded although many did join the ranks of the Waffen-SS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeydz Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 Well as far as the volume of responses generated by a search, I checked using this topic to see how long it would take to get an idea of what the anwer to my question would be on CM2 being East Front or Africa. Keywords used.... CM2, Eastern, Front, Africa. Time for search results screen to appear.... Approx 15 seconds. Results.... I got 4 "hits" to my inquiry. #1.... "Two more Cms?" by Private Ryan http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/000656.html Short thread, asking how many CM's were planned, and which one was next. This was answered by Fionn that EF was next in line, 3 other theaters possible. #2.... "No Russians???" by Reverendo http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/001413.html Question asking about the fact no Russians in CM and mentions an expansion pack. Meduim sized thread with a lot of "fluff", but BTS had the 3rd response, stating Eastern Front is set for CM2. Also further down the line, Dave posts this... "No CM in the Pacific theater. CM2 is Eastern Front. CM3 is North Africa/Med. CM4 is early Western Europe." #3.... "east front CM?" by Stabsfeldwebel http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/002075.html Another relatively short thread, asking (I guess) about the feasabilty of a East Front CM considering the scope. In BTS response (1st reply in thread), they basically outline that CM2 will cover the Eastern Front from '41-'45. Thia search took me no more than 5 minutes, and I would have answered the question of what CM2 was going to be. This is what all the hoopla is all about concerning these questions. Instead of taking 5 minutes of his time to answer his own question, he just repeated a previously answered question. What happens now is.. A. Alot of people take a couple of seconds to read the thread and ignore it since it's already been answered. (Wasted time) B. Some people read the thread and take a minute or two to repeat the answer. (More wasted time) 90% of his questions could be answered by him taking a few minutes to dig just a little. While I'm impressed by his enthusiasim, I fear that he's going to come to a point where he's going to turn a lot of people off. Then people will outright just ignore his posts. Not a good thing. So, Capt. Please, please, please make an effort to do some homework, so to speak, before asking some of this stuff. Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captain Foobar Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 I think that alot of the "chatty" kinds of posts will tend to drop off once there is a CM chat area on CMHQ. Sure, you can get the information from the search function, but some people (myself included) tend to post as a way of interaction with the other players, to see what the reply will be. I agree that we should all try to limit redundant posts, but thats my speculation on why you see so many posts in spite of the ever-ready search function. And by the way Maneiri, you may be a Captain too, but as I was here first, I outrank you. ------------------ "when in doubt, run in circles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 Just claim to be in the Navy Foobar. A Captain is a much higher rank than in the army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captain Foobar Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 As a last resort, my friend. I hope my current excuse holds, because I don't know if I could stomach being a navy man!!! ------------------ "when in doubt, run in circles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 Capt_Manieri, I would suggest the following books to get you started... Hitler Moves East and Scorched Earth... both by Paul Carrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 Ah Scorched Earth, the first tank vs tank game I ever played. The 2D graphics were amazing, yellow and blue tanks knocked your socks off!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 Also don't forget that CM3 will have Greece and Jugoslavia as well. I'd say that between that, Italy, and NA CM3 will have the most uniquely different sceanrios of all the CMs. And I will also finally get to use my Croatian OBs Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 What about Allied Italians? There were some possible and actual military engagements between the Germans and an organized Italian Army. The British sent in 600 troops into some Agean Islands to aid the Italians but were overwealmed by the German forces in the region. Let alone other engagements. Will Ethiopia be modeled? I state this because my Grandfather saw action there and after some very bitter fighting was captured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocky Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 Agean Islands that must!!! include Crete for CM3 Maybe we will get to some New Zealand troops or at least the ANZACs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 Were doing a Chat Area on CMHQ?!? Oh, brother I guess everyone forgot to tell me! Now I have to learn more about scripts, java and Active X....Oh brother.... I was hoping you guys would be happy with just pictures and my quick wit! Guess I better get to it.. SORRY EVERYONE! NO MORE PICTURES, I GOTTA MAKE A CHAT AREA SO WE CAN WATCH EACH OTHER BUTCHER SPELLING WORDS IN REAL TIME!!! Madmatt out...Of his mind... ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! combathq.thegamers.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerLeader Posted January 6, 2000 Share Posted January 6, 2000 Actually Manieri you may consider these few points(some of them have already been mentioned but I couldn't resist replying personally to this very provocative topic of yours): -80% of German casualties of WW2 were caused on the EF...Such a decisive theater of war CANNOT be bypassed. -the richness of the EF is far greater than the mediterranean theater alone. 4 years of war across a front that goes from Murmansk to the Black Sea... I can't even imagine how many interesting scenarios one could create using CM's editor. The battles there were much more diverse than in Africa(combination of trench warfare, blitzkrieg, heavy city fighting...) -the Americans were almost entirely absent of the Theater of War you suggest. They only came in in November 1942 and didn't take part in any significant battle before February 43. -your overly nationalist feelings have NO place on this forum, especially in a new topic. You deserved the flaming Manieri, you truly did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heibis Posted January 7, 2000 Share Posted January 7, 2000 Well... Anyone with some knowledge of WW2 know that the deciding campaign of the war was the EF. Just think of how the once-mighty Luftwaffe was bleeding away ground supporting and doing CAPs in Russia while the combined allied air forces were bombing city after city to flames with very little coordinated opposition. Another interesting fact is that while US and CW did provide some lend-lease to the Sovet Union, it was basically the Red Army driving Soviet vehicles and manning soviet weapons who beat the Wehrmacht. Just considering the facts, as PanzerLeader said, up to 80% of the German war effort was directed against the bolshevists. The germans managed to kill millions of russians, some say up to 25 mill., if you include civilian casualties (approx. 50%). Bottom line: If there is a thing as THE wargame of all times, that better be CM2 : East Front! Greetings from Norway, everybody! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lokesa Posted January 7, 2000 Share Posted January 7, 2000 I always thought the 25 million figure to be inclusive of Stalins actions against his own people. Werent various ethnic groups within Russia pretty much eradicated by Stalins regiem during the war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 7, 2000 Share Posted January 7, 2000 If you include Stalin's actions, I've seen the figure raise to 40 mil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted January 7, 2000 Share Posted January 7, 2000 The US's main contributions in Lend-Lease weren't the 'sexy' things like tanks and planes but the more mundane things. By the end of the war, two thirds of the Soviet trucks were American made. America shipped 15 MILLION pairs of winter boots to the Russians. America shipped so much food that each Russina soldier could have eaten a half pound of concentrated rations every day for the entire war. The amount of war material that the US produced was absolutely ridiculous. Just for propoganda purposes an American shipyard constructed a Liberty ship in three and a half days. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lokesa Posted January 7, 2000 Share Posted January 7, 2000 Ouch 40,000,000 people... I'm trying to put it in persepctive but cant really grasp it, thats an awful lot of people. Can someone post total American casualties for WWII for comparison. it was under 300,000 wasn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted January 7, 2000 Share Posted January 7, 2000 Lokesa, "One death is a tragedy. A million deaths is a statistic." -Josef Stalin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 7, 2000 Share Posted January 7, 2000 Some random answers... No to Ethiopia per se. However I am sure that you could scrape together something using the British and Italian stuff. Won't be totally authentic, but you might get close. Aussies and Kiwis will FINALLY see themselves in CM3 for sure You guys would skin us alive if we didn't 25 million is one estimated figure of Soviet citizens that were killed as a direct result of German (and their Allies of course) action during WWII. Rough figures (and they are VERY rough) is 10 million military, 15 million civilian. Rough figures for Stalin's starving of the Ukraine is about 10 million. Nobody really knows how many more million were killed in small numbers before and after. In fact, in terms of direct, targeted killings the Soviet regime under Stalin probably racked up a larger number of bodies than Hitler's Third Reich. Don't forget, Stalin was killing people in mass numbers for nearly three decades, while Hitler packed his mass murder into a period of less than 4-8 depending on how you count. Jason is quite right. The US also sent over tons of trucks making the Soviet Union more mechanized that the Germans ever were. Also radios were a big one. But also smaller things like crucial metals and other materials were sent over in large quantities. Lokesa, off the top of my head I think US losses were 500,000 including both fronts. Could be mistaken on that one. However, the US had the lowest percentage of civilian deaths of all the major powers that fought in WWII. Our civilian population thought having rationed gasoline and meat was a hardship. Being an American I can say "typical" Ever see "The Meaning of Life"? "Can we take our cars?" Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lokesa Posted January 7, 2000 Share Posted January 7, 2000 Must have been the salmon pate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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