Tungsten for the love of God!

[Grognerd_Fogman]

I instruct my crews to only use T-rounds if they're feeling "lucky"..."Punk!"

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Thanks for Athskin!

[KiwiJoe]

Im all for less Tungsten rounds overall, but more use of it when they have it. If your facing a Panther or Tiger front on at 500m + it should be the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc round fired till its gone.

[Guest KwazyDog]

Hi Guys

Just letting you know Ive been doing some pretty serious testing on this issue, and will be speaking to Charles to get his impressions on the matter.

Funnily enough, the testing I have done has actually surpised me as to how often Tungsten is used in CM *but* there are a couple of points into which I will be further investigating.

I will let you guys know when anything further develops.

[This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 10-11-2000).]

[Kanonier Reichmann]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

They sure do like to hoard that tungsten don't they?!

I think the AI looks at it this way, every round must be worth at least case of good whisky on the black market after the day's action is over so the more they have left over to trade the bigger party they can have

-tom w<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can't have much of a party if you're dead can you, unless of course it's called a wake. I couldn't agree more on how unbelievably miserly the Allied units are with their tungsten rounds. It's as if Scrooge McDuck is the Tank Commander in every Allied tank saving up the t rounds so he can horde them in his tungsten depository.

Regards

Jim R.

[Dittohead]

Look if the allies get more tungsten use then the german tanks should get their better optics and their 88/L71's more penetration.

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dittohead:

Look if the allies get more tungsten use then the german tanks should get their better optics and their 88/L71's more penetration. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely GODDAM right! seriously....

Did somebody say that in Apocolypse Now?

[aka_tom_w]

serioulsy...

I would really like to see the Allies use their TG at the slightest hint of danger, SOP to fire TG at Panthers Tigers and KT, after firing only one AP round. (especially for Vet Crack and Elite Allied crews that have better chance to hit on their next shot, after a first shot miss.)

AND for play balance, SURE the German Long range adavanatges of their high velocity rounds from the 88 should be modeled with a greater advantage over 1000 meters INCLUDING some form of better optice bonus and better long range 88 mm penetration being modeled.

(even slightly better would be appreciated)

Let the Allies shoot their TG with the slightest provocation.

AND more accurately model the German Long range ability to engage most allied targets outside their (Allied) effective range for the 88 mm and 76 mm main weapons.

But as most have said here it seems there is no good reason to model increased availability of TG as it was not readily available, JUST let them fire what TG they have immediately after firing one reg AP round at any heavy German tank.

Perfect solution

comments

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 10-11-2000).]

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 10-11-2000).]

[L.Tankersley]

What about FOW? Do you want your tanks firing tungsten at a PzIV you misidentified as a Tiger? I think it's probably more realistic to switch to tungsten when the gun has hit the target with regular AP and not penetrated. That way the crew has hard evidence that regular AP was insufficient (for that hit location, angle, slope etc.) and if they fire again they might want to up their chances if possible.

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Leland J. Tankersley

[Maj. Bosco]

I've figured out why every allied tank with a 76mm gun on it gets tungsten (and so much)! It's used so infrequently that there isn't an allied tanker left alive who remembers what it's for! I suspect they're kind of like housewarming.. er.. tank warming gifts now.

"Here ya go Joe, just put 'em underneath all the real ammo."

"What're those for?"

"I dunno.. I think they're like novelty ammo or someting"

"So don't use 'em?"

"Naw, don't worry, if you bounce enough shells off a tiger it'll just go away."

"Really?"

This practice of trying to drive off tigers by bouncing shells off them has lead to both a sharp decline in the numbers of competent allied tankers and a massive surplus tungsten rounds.

[Snake Eyes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by L.Tankersley:

What about FOW? Do you want your tanks firing tungsten at a PzIV you misidentified as a Tiger?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the crew thinks it's a Tiger they should use T. I would expect to see lesser experienced crews using it when they shouldn't. Would I like to see a PzIV taken out by a precious T round? Probably not, but what does that have to do with anything?

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It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

[L.Tankersley]

My point is that it's hard to say how any given crew might have identified a potential target. In CM due to global spotting once a tank is identified as a Tiger, say, everyone thinks it's a Tiger. In actuality, most of the time each crew would have to spot and identify targets individually, but keeping track of that for every unit would probably be prohibitive. Plus, what about target facing? Do you really want to use tungsten when firing at the rear of a Panther, when regular AP is more than capable of scoring a kill? The various cases and exceptions required to make this sort of a scheme acceptable will quickly get very complicated. That's why instead of a scheme that relies on vehicle crews identifying german "heavy tanks" and correctly deciding to use tungsten based on a whole range of factors, I propose they rely on an easier and more emperical heuristic: if they hit with AP and don't kill, it might be time to break out the special ammo.

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Leland J. Tankersley

[IntelWeenie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by L.Tankersley:

Plus, what about target facing? Do you really want to use tungsten when firing at the rear of a Panther, when regular AP is more than capable of scoring a kill?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not me, that's why I suggested computing T usage based on (suspected) enemy armor thickness and % chance to hit. I have no problem with a Green crew firing T at a "Tiger?" only to later find out it was a Pz IV, but that's because I love FOW.

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Cats aren't clean, they're covered with cat spit.

[Snake Eyes]

The more intelligence that BTS can program into the TacAI, the better I say. But our little pixel crews are not going to always do it right. I would prefer them to 'overuse' T than not use it at all. And to balance play, I have said previously in this and other threads, T is too prevalent.

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It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

[Tiger]

I'll quote this again for the tungsten advocates:

"In August a few rounds of the new 76mm HVAP (APCR) ammunition was rushed to France and tests were conducted near Isigny against six captured Panthers. The tests showed that the new ammunition was extremely accurate and a great improvement over the old APC M62, but it could not penetrate the Panther's front plate at ranges over 300 yards. Production of the new ammunition was also limited to only 10,000 rounds per month which meant that it could only be used on an emergency basis."

from R.P. Hunnicutt's book "Sherman"

-john

[This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 10-11-2000).]

[aka_tom_w]

I think that we have all found that losing a unit like a tank in this game is a BIG deal, loosing a tank is worth alot more than running out of tungsten, I would be happy if my tanks ran out of tungsten if it meant I ended up with even one more live tank than my opponent.

Killing tanks, (Any enemy tank really) is IMHO a BIG deal on this CM battlefield and if a PzMk IV is mistaken for a Tiger and one of my crew mistakenly loads TG and brews it up, I say great! thats one less enemy tank to deal with and now I have a inflicted a little weakness on the other side that maybe I can begin to exploit this with some of my other units. The only wasted round is a TG round that misses. Yes you should see one bounce off a frontal aspect before you load the precious TG round, but when you know what your up against and its bigger and meaner than you are, firing off a reg AP round is like bringing a knife to gun fight.

I think we all like to play to win and getting that first round off quickly that scores the first hit can spell life or death for the tank in question.

Even if I only had one tank that had only 2 rounds of TG I would want them used sooner rather than later, then you have the feeling even if you get your tank brewed up later , that at least you tried, you can feel good knowing you gave it EVERYTHING you had.

Just let them fire the damn TG!

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 10-11-2000).]

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 10-11-2000).]

[aka_tom_w]

worth repeating, I still think this a GREAT subject title for this Thread.

"Tungsten For the Love God!" man....

I can just hear a Scottish TC bellowing to load that damn Tungsten Round!

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 10-11-2000).]

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KwazyDog:

Hi Guys

Just letting you know Ive been doing some pretty serious testing on this issue, and will be speaking to Charles to get his impressions on the matter.

Funnily enough, the testing I have done has actually surpised me as to how often Tungsten is used in CM *but* there are a couple of points into which I will be further investigating.

I will let you guys know when anything further develops.

[This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 10-11-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm posting this more as a reminder for myself than anything else.

Sounds like KwazyDog is looking into it, so I guess I should stop my bitching and complaining, but this is a fun topic to rant about, sort of brings a smile to my face, what with all the jokes about hoarding and saving the tungsten and not wasting it on just any old tiger or panther that strolls by

More fun than flames in this thread for sure.

-tom w

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

but this is a fun topic to rant about, sort of brings a smile to my face, what with all the jokes about hoarding and saving the tungsten and not wasting it on just any old tiger or panther that strolls by

More fun than flames in this thread for sure.

-tom w<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The best was the comment about the 76mm AT gun crew survivors digging their precious HVAP rounds out of the smoking crater of their gun position and lovingly cleaning and stroking them.

Jeff

[aka_tom_w]

Ask me just ask me how many times I screamed Use the Damn tungsten!! tonight?

I have really been enjoying playing this game lately, but just tonight I was playing and watched my allied Hellcats get smoked after bouncing three AP rounds off a King Tiger they thought was a Panther, so I watched as the Panther (KT) missed a few times, I thought great after every missed round, OK use the tungsten THIS time, but no, there was about 24 AP rounds available to the Hellcat and only 1 Tungsten round and damn this ratio thing because the tank would not LOAD that Damn K-Kill tungsten round!

It was ONLY against the AI but this not firing Tungsten issue REALLY needs to be looked at, as it really is a Life and Death situation for every Allied TD that has tungsten that does not fire it against frontal armour of the Heavy German tanks.

I know BTS said they would look at it, but it drove me crazy tonight watching it NOT be used.

sorry.....

Its late and I'm just ranting (Again )

-tom w

[Harold]

Tom,

Maybe you are just playing the wrong opponents . One of my opponents had his 76w take out a King on the second shot from the front. It took a few minutes for me to figure out it was even ko'd. My only reaction was it damn well had better been Tung. Turns out it was. Come to think of it I have another opponent who thought planes were pretty useless until he just spotted a huge bomb crater with a Mark IV parked next to it and that is all he can see so far

[Guest ciks]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>there was about 24 AP rounds available to the Hellcat and only 1 Tungsten round and damn this ratio thing because the tank would not LOAD that Damn K-Kill tungsten round!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe one can try to to shoot "worthless" AP rounds to already knocked out enemy tanks thus lower the AP/T ratio

[Maj. Bosco]

For allied players this is the most OBNOXIOUS issue with tank AI. I almost wish there was a way to dump AP rounds so that my TD's would have to fire their tungsten. For the allies this is even worse than having tanks focus too much on crew. Please address this issue.

Bump.

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maj. Bosco:

For allied players this is the most OBNOXIOUS issue with tank AI. I almost wish there was a way to dump AP rounds so that my TD's would have to fire their tungsten. For the allies this is even worse than having tanks focus too much on crew. Please address this issue.

Bump.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

After last night and watching my weak skinned Hellcats take a beating I could not agree more.

I like the word OBNOXIOUS, its the ratio thing that determines when they use the stuff that is OBNOXIOUS.

BUT it is still a GREAT game and I know the priority and the focus now is on the TCP/IP so I guess we will have to wait.

And Yes a way to "dump" AP rounds to get the ratio down to a level where they might actaully fire tungsten is one "work around" way to deal with it I guess.

-tom w

[Lordfluffers]

If I was an Allied tanker and came across a Tiger, Panther or something similar I'd be loading those Tungsten rounds up as fast as I could. Stuff the 'waiting for a better target' ****. Tungsten was intended to be used against enemy heavy tanks. And facing one of these guys I would not be commanding my crew to fire AT rounds so we can 'save' our Tungsten. Look at the problem from a real life perspective.

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What signal? I see no signal!

Horatio Nelson

Battle of Cape St. Vincent (1796)

[Guest Andrew Hedges]

In real life, though, the US tankers (I'm not sure about allied, generally) didn't use very much tungsten, even when they encountered panthers and tigers. They had a standard operating procedure that involved firing smoke with some tanks and flanking with others; you really don't hear that much about the use of HVAP in routine encounters with German AFVs.

What seems most logical to me is that tankers would be much more likely to use tungsten if they are defending (especially if they are being overwhelmed, or have watched three other tanks in their platoon brew up). So in a Dec 18 battle of the bulge scenario, when heavy German tanks are attacking in great number and attempting to destroy or encircle US tankers, I would think that the use of tungsten would be much more common than in a situation where the US is attacking, since the attacker can always decide not to be so aggressive.

One danger with having tungsten depend too much on the enemy tank involved is that it might lead to unrealistic scenarios in which the allied tanks deliberately make a frontal attack on the KT because they know that their tankers will elect to use Tungsten in that situation.

HVAP rounds were also ballistically different from regular AP rounds, which means that even if you've bounced a couple of AP rounds of the KT at 800m, you still might miss if you switch to a round that flies differently. Which might affect tankers willingness to use tungsten, too.