Why Do We Have Wars/Play Wargames?

[KiloIndiaAlpha]

I've hobby wargamed on and off for over twenty years and I get a lot from it.

Also I've been involved professionally, from a technical position, in very large scale computer assisted exercises (CAX) with both US and UK armed forces and I know the benefits/drawbacks of CAX's.

Sometimes, in my introspective moments, I wonder why I wargame and why I enjoy it.

A lot of it I feel is the intellectual challenge of beating an opponent(enemy?). But perhaps we all have a very thin veneer of civilisation over us which can be quite easily removed.

So, why do you wargame? (Or if the opportunity arose would the game element be removed?)

KIA

[RobVarak]

I've been entertaining those same thoughts lately. I've been researching the circumstances of my wife's uncle's death. He was a KIA in the ETO (309th Inf. 78th ID). In doing so it's given me pause, as I consider why I enjoy playing games which simulate the very events which took his life.

Unfortunately, I can't really answer that. I suspect it may have to do with the instinctive impulse to fight (which of coures underlies sports and other types of play as well). There's also probably some part of the brain that relishes the opportunity to "match wits" with another (or computer).

Fascinating topic, though.

Rob

[Guest Zigster]

Two words: Tiger envy

[Guest Capt_Manieri]

I wargame because it is a sensible alternative to playing with toy soldiers.

[Guest kevi]

I wargame for entertainment and to better

understand key elements related to military operations. From this I hope to better understand history, current events

and potential issues faced by my country and the world at large. Wargaming is part of my “day”. It integrates well with newspapers, books and other media like the History Channel. For me, wargaming is part of a balanced diet of information. It is fun, competitive and absolutely addicting. It keeps me out of bars late at night and that makes the wife happy.

- Kevin

[Bullethead]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>So, why do you wargame? (Or if the opportunity arose would the game element be removed?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because we are predators. Because we are the top predators EVER to evolve in this eco-system. Sure, our remotest ancestors might have been fruit-eating monkeys, but when they came down from the trees, they developed a taste for meat. So for a LONG time after that, WAY longer than we've had a roof over our heads and had to live together in cities, our ancestors went around killing everything that moved, and each other to thin out the competition.

Why do cats kill mice even when they're not hungry? Because their whole genetic make-up is focused on being the ideal mouse killer. Why to people kill each other? Same thing.

-Bullethead

[Guest Tom punkrawk]

I play wargames to learn about the past wars. I've learned more stuff about WW2 playing games then in school.

I also do re-enacting which is kinda a war game. That gives you almost the feeling of what it was like to be there...

It's all a learning experiance...

------------------

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[Guest L Tankersley]

Interesting simultaneity here ... on another forum today I found a post providing the following link

www.crossover.com/~costik/nowords.html

to an article by Greg Costikyan that discusses what a "game" is, and the difference between games and puzzles. You may find it interesting.

On the original topic ... I think that competition is a big part of the reason I play wargames, along with a desire to evaluate myself within a non-threatening structure. To try to answer the question "how would I really perform?" if I were placed in the situations possible in games. This is why I personally find reality flaws in certain games to be frustrating or annoying: in games like CC, the flavor (or "color" as Costikyan calls it) is present, but there are glaring reality errors that destroy the feeling of immersion. It's not a flaw with the game as a game, but it mars my perception and limits the enjoyment I get out of it.

There's a little of all the above-posted answers in me as well, of course. (Well, except for Tiger envy.)

Leland J. Tankersley

[Guest aaronb]

Because history is changed on the battlefield and in the minds of brilliant, driven persons.

So, I wargame and study philosophy.

And because... look at Bullethead's comments. It's much more civilized to kill electrons than people.

[Carentan]

I believe that the two questions here have remarkably divergent answers. As to why I personally enjoy wargaming, I'd guess that it's equal parts fascination with equipment (weaponry too) and a keen interest in how the players on the stage respond to the challenge. Outside of the occasional wargame, I consider myself quite civilized and one of the least aggressive folks I know.

The question of why nations war is infinitely complex, but I can bet that it isn't for the same reasons that I enjoy an evening of West Front. No, I think the two issues are only distantly related. Boy, I sure hope so

[JeffRaider]

I wargame because it's the best damned game there is. There's nothing that requires more cold calculation, gut intuition and killer instinct. It's like playing chess on an ever-changing board with ever-changing pieces, which have different abilities depending on the year.

[Hundminen]

[This message has been edited by Hundminen (edited 01-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Hundminen (edited 01-25-2000).]

[Herr Oberst]

Hmm. Tactics, tactics, tactics.

I was once told by a business colleague that I was a good strategic thinker, and he wondered where I learned to "think" that way.

I then introduced him to wargaming, and midway through a face to face CC2 scenario, asked him how he made his decisions on what to do next in the game.

I listened to his explanation of "Well, once I have suppressed the defenders with long range tank fire, and isolated the building with the BAR and 50 cal, one or two infantry squads should be able to take this building."

Afterward, I immediately asked how he planned to deal with a particularly difficult client. When he replied that he wasn't sure, I asked him what the issues were, and what assets he had available to deal with each.

When the light bulb went on, right there above his head, he smiled.

That's when I told him to go read Sun Tzu, and think beyond the battlefield.

[This message has been edited by Herr Oberst (edited 01-25-2000).]

[WendellM]

"So, why do you wargame?"

One reason is that I love to see all the system of a good wargame interact (I'm mostly talking about board games, but there are some fascinating computer ones out there, too). For me, a well-done wargame makes all the factors that drove the historical events fit naturally. While I do enjoy competitive play, I also like just reading the rules and enjoying their interplay.

Capt_Manieri's reply about it being an alternative to playing with toy soldiers has some resonance, too .

Meaning no ill-will, I've had problems with opponents who have attitudes that seem like the one expressed by Bullethead. They're so focused with winning and seeing this an a serious contest that play becomes less enjoyable. This isn't intended as a slam against that type of gamer; it's just that I see it as more of an abstract learning exercise.

Lastly, I love playing a historical wargame to augment books when learning about a given period in history. It's one thing to read what happened, but much more immediate when you're able to actually "go into" the environment and experience it yourself.

Wendell

[Guest Bobb]

Let the following be a lesson to those who must ask questions: if you ask, someone will respond. Now, are you really sure you want to ask?

Hmmmmmmm. We are laying out a really complex rationale here of many layers. From what is

play in general to our own specific, prefered

elements of play in wargaming.

The cat and mouse illustration along with a little concurrent action in the next room reminded me that cats play too. They suspend their real world judgement for a few moments and feathers become whole birds; various other objects become prey that they simultaneously bat about to give them some of the motion of something alive, and pounce upon them in imatation of doing the real thing. They play battle with their siblings, stalking attacking and defending.

Manipulation of the mammalian environment in play activity that creates dramatizations of of real world experence both remembered and anticipated seems to be functional in all of us hair bearers. It seems to be a way of exploration of our own possibilities and an extremely satisfying one.

The more of ourselves that a play activity engages and the better it mirrors the performance, the better we like it. While the imagination is capable of filling holes and deliberately overlooking others, we find a much greater satisfaction where the elements used in play much more closely match their real world counterparts. From the extremes of physical involvement in sports to the most passive of spectator involvement it is our minds that are the key players. We place ourselves into a virtual existance and find therein an exploration of parts of the possibiities of ourselves and our environment. If the philosipher said, "Know thyself", he was but repeating an imparitive of mammalian nature as expressed in play.

In the play of cats I observe a lot of personality difference. Some throw themselves into it so heartily that play fighting transitions over into a real fight. Others engage in play casually and much less frequently. In people I see some playing very little; and what of that they do, is a more or less extension normal life activities.

They may even deny they play at all having no time for such foolishness. I would propose that where one acts beyond the necessity of the moment, that there is an element of play involved. Where Bill Gates plays, others treated as his mice squeek in protest and even perhaps turn rise up biting back, saying your playing with us has gone too far. Do we play the role of both cat and mouse willingly as we play, but occasionally crying foul when the nips become too hard? Cats can take their play seriously or let it go as entertainment. We seem no different.

The roles engaged in our play are as varied and cover a great a spectrum as our life itself. That we should do war is simply a part of that. Now, why should some of us select war over other pursuits?

Cats are curious creatures and like to explore; our maps provide a virutal world to explore with satisfaction no less different.

Cats engage in dominance and submissive social roles; wars and wargames no less provide opportunities for us to dominate or submit in complex ways. (And aren't little girls acting out simular roles at times when playing with dolls?) Cats and people kill; it seems that playing at killing should not be surprising. Men are by far predominant in real life killing; it should not be surprising that they should dominate the games in which killing is involved. Women play a strong social role in killing, (Was old Helen totally innocent at Troy?); women may be found as enthusiastic players in the murder mystery games. They may not shoot; but, they are often grand cheerleaders, yet in complete correspondance with their nature become the loudest protestors of war.

If you really want to find one most against war, find a warrior. And perhaps a wargamer.

One of the most revealing discoveries for the

wargamer, especially paintballers, and those

reenactors who play wargames using themselves as as full sized minitures, are the numerous occasions in which they find out close up and personally just how easy it is to be killed on the battle field. And their experence very little duplicates the real extent of the opportunities of death and maiming on the battlefield.

Through movies, histories, personal accounts, novels, short stories, games of varous media and in acting out activities in real scale and time using the real or approximate implements of war, we play at war, and when asked why, we answer with what we are and what we know, whether that be great or little. Usually fragments. Perhaps the greater question is whether fragments are all that are possible as answers.

[Guest Captain Foobar]

I don't know why I do. I hate violence with the same intensity as I am exhilherated by wargames. Makes me a little uneasy to think about. I get the adventure of war, without the ugly reality that IS war. It is important to keep the reality of it in perspective...

who has the quote " it is good that war is so terrible...lest we grow fond of it"

I am fond of it...in its wargame form

[Bullethead]

WendellM said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Meaning no ill-will, I've had problems with opponents who have attitudes that seem like the one expressed by Bullethead. They're so focused with winning and seeing this an a serious contest that play becomes less enjoyable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No offense taken

Actually, you misunderstood my post. KIA asked why we war and wargame. I said merely that the answer to both questions is that we're predators. Killing is what we do. Killing is what a significant portion of our genes has been focused on for a VERY long time, at least as far back as the currently recognized advent of the genus Homo, if not before. I'm talking on the order of 1-2 million years, during which every generation's killer traits were honed by unmerciful Darwinian selection. We've only been "civilized" for like 5000 years tops, which no more than 1/2 of 1% of this time.

Scratch this thin layer of paint off any "civilized" human and you'll find a raging BEAST beneath. I've seen Bible-thumping borderline conscientious objectors deliberately gut-shoot the enemy just to watch them kick, after only a few weeks in the field.

Bobb really said what I was trying to say in his long post about cats. We find playing at war "fun" for the same reason that we think sex is "fun". Both are biological bribes to help ensure survival. The latter leads to reproduction, the former makes us better at the real thing so we'll be more likely to have the chance to reproduce.

Bottom line: people are animals just like all the others that have evolved on earth. We're "nature red of tooth and claw." And we've reached the point of having time and opportunity to discuss this subject simply because we are better at killing the other animals than they are of us. The only real difference between us and them is that some of us feel bad about it.

-Bullethead

[Guest Big Time Software]

All this talk of cats, I have to say that one is on my lap and the other is bathing himself next to my monitor. Guess it is Peace Time in my house

Herr Oberst hit one of the biggies on the head. People who play strategic games, and play them well, do better when presented with solving real world problems. This is not just my opinion, but that of the eggheads that get printed in various journals and make lots of money for being smarter than I am No offense intended, only good jest Seriously, this sort of thing is fairly well documented and has even found its way into school programs for younger kids.

I have been playing strategy games since I was about 3, and doing well at them too. My parents joke that after about 4 yrs old they started to play for real against me in card games like Concentration. They also joke that they honestly lost often So it progressed over the years. It has given me the ability to formulate simple plans from complex situations in very short periods of time (seconds in some cases). Not that I am always right, but as the old axiom goes "any plan is better than no plan at all, for no plan is in fact a plan through default of inaction".

Now compare myself to my wife (she is away, so this is safe ). She is VERY bright, and a far better student than I ever was. But toss a winger of a problem at her and she has a hard time wrapping her mind around the thing and producing a coherent plan right off the bat. Not always mind you, but more often than not I come up with a plan instantly and after much discussion we usually go with what I came up with more or less as the basis. Again, I am not always right, but strategic gaming has made me more quick and (VERY IMPORTANT) confident that my 1st solution is at least decent.

The tie into wargaming is that I have found no other game system as challenging, rewarding, and interesting. I enjoy lots of other types of games, but this is where my heart gets invested as well as my mind. And the fact that I love history so much that I got my degree in it, just makes it all the more richer and rewarding. Well, that is when the game and history have at least a basic level of association with each other.

And why do we humans war? Bullethead scratched the correct surface. Because we are as fundamentally subject to the laws of Darwin as any other organism on this planet. We can sometimes curb the animal in us at the micro and macro level, but the pressure for violence and war is ALWAYS there. Personally, I am agaisnt war only because of the practical issues (killing, property destruction, environmental damage, the loss of historical structures, war profiteering, etc.). War itself is a necessary part of human development and evolution, so every so often (like a forest fire) war is good in the BIG picture (i.e. hundreds of years' perspective). War is rarely good for those that fight it, but hopefully it makes things better for the next generation.

Also, war used to be a natural form of population control. It still is in places like Africa and to a lesser extent other developing nations (think civil unrest here). Unfortunately, we now have the ability to OVERKILL in the extermination department, to the extent of wiping out the planet along with ourselves. This has created the need for more peace, which has in turn has shut off one of the population check and balances for industrialized nations. This is probably a bad thing long term, because when war finally comes (and it will someday) it is going to be a doosey...

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 01-26-2000).]

[Guest Lokesa]

why do I play wargames? Cause I'm a scorpio, it's in my nature

Seriously though, I grew up on games, war history is a favorite as well as the samurai style warrior philosophy.

I definitely agree with steve and bullet.

Perhaps I'm a freak but doubt it, in my search I have found that I have a very tender side to me that actually cares about others while at the same time I have another side to me that loves violence and hurting people. The feeling of power and the adrenalein... nothing compares

As a member of society however (as well as getting old) I cant engage in violent behavior and must find release elsewhere (martial training, society for creative anachronism, sex, etc) perhaps wargaming fills this need in some way?

Many people who've experienced these "dark" pleasures, dont want to accept that they are "that way" I've heard people say it was the devils work. In my opinion thats all a cop-out, we all at some level have these base desires that socialization tells us are wrong. The idea, for me at least, is to realize them and accept them as part of your makeup, then decide in what direction you want to spend your energy.

and in response to Wendell, I agree, many gamers are way to serious for me to enjoy playing against. I enjoy the competition but if they cant take it in stride then...

[Guest GriffinCheng]

"Why do I play wargames?"

Well, it is kinda way to fulfill my inner nature of aggression (I born under Gemini tough, I wonder what the signs Leo and Scoprio have to do with that). Another reason I am attracted to military stuff when I was small. Unfortunately, lack of atmosphere of wargaming in my place and peers, I mis-adventure for really long time (over 20 years). Until I re-discover computer wargaming and well I think I am "on-track" again. Steel Panthers and "Tankers" web page (anyone remember that one?) introduce further to the historical aspects of wargaming. Amazon.com has a customer who buy history books from them.

"Why do Human rage war?"

Some people say history is a record of war. I am no expert but I think it is partially human nature to employ violence as a mean to solve problems and indifferences. May be it is the place I live (again), I do not even have a good understanding why people are willing to give up their lives for the sake of war.

[This message has been edited by GriffinCheng (edited 01-26-2000).]

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

I play wargames to command and conquer. It's a visceral pleasure. If I lived in the time of Alexander, I would have left home to go conquer the world.

On a more cerebral level, being able to see into the future,(tactics,planning), is like hearing an angle whisper your approaching victory.

By the way, I think the word 'game' comes from the Greek word..to screw.

[Hawk]

To qoute my homepage:

"War has for some reason always fascinated me, and since killing and maiming people, vaporizing real estate and looting private property is generally frowned upon by most communities, I quickly got into wargaming. These days I satisfy my ambitions as warmonger on computer games and table top games."

And of course, it's much more comfy to be able to this in your own living room. That way, the risk of getting killed or injured is next to nothing!

My best guess on reason for this facination is the built-in-the-genes theory. It all started when I as 9 year old managed to persuad my folks that I should be allowed to watch "The Great War" on tv (from BBC). After that I had huge wars using Lego and later plastic soldiers. Imagine my joy when I discovered that there actually was wargames (my desire to learn english soared at that point)

As to real life, I honestly don't know. I do have quite a temper though, so I can imagine circumstances where the "beast within" would take control and wage war on my enemies.

So I now play these games, enjoying the experience and trying hard to ignore the moral qualms the pops up from time to time.

Hawk

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Our's is not to reason "why", our's is but to do and die!

[NIX]

I like to play wargames because of the strategy involved. In my opinion, sports games, half-life and other types do not require as much thinking as wargames do. There is nothing like planning and executing a successful flanking move or counter attack. I also like to envision myself as one of the commanders and see if I can keep myself alive. Also I play them because of my love of history. Sometimes I feel I was born after my time. I was born in 1970 and was fortunate to not have to fight in a war. But I do sometimes regret that I never served in the military. That is why I go out of my way to thank all veterans for the sacrifices they have made.

As far as why we fight wars, I think many of the posts in this thread cover that issue. This is an excellent topic and have continued to be impressed with the recent topics and the replys!

[jgdpzr]

Like everyone else here, I too have wondered why wargames are such a fascination with me. Certainly, the arguments espousing the attraction of tactics, competition, satiation of primal urges, etc. carry much weight, and they certainly are part of my attraction. But for me, personally, there is something else that simply defies classification. I am normally a highly analytical person, who has reasonably good insight into my proclivities and preferences. But one personal fascination has always escaped my understanding and that is my preoccupation with World War II. I can remember as a small child, I really loved those WWII comic books and my little toy tanks and planes. Nothing abnormal about that. But whereas my friends, and brothers, would move on to some other genre of play, I have always been stuck on that period of history. I can sit for hours watching the History Channel, riveted to whatever WWII yarn they are spinning. This fascination has logically spilled over into model building and of course wargaming. But for me, it all still relates back to WWII. No other military conflict even comes close in terms of fascination. Sometimes, I reflect on the lines George C. Scott recited early in Patton, the poem he wrote about his presence on the battlefields of wars past, and just kinda wonder...

[PanzerLeader]

I play wargames first of all because I've always been interested in the art of War at all levels, so finishing a scenario successfully against the AI or a human gives me a nice feel of warm satisfaction...I also like to analyse things so a wargame is ideal for me 'cos it's so complex. Recreating past events, being in the exact same situation as that great commander 60 years ago is also fascinating.

Finally, wargaming I feel might prepare me for my future job(I'd like to become an officer in the French Army later...)