Dr. Brian Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 I can see a .50 cal chew up a halftrack, but I just can't see the other MGs (MMG and HMG, which is basically the same gun but with better optics and tripod, etc) rip open halftracks. Like, am I the only person to feel MGs are too powerful when it comes to halftracks? Thanks in advance everyone! (For the "Do a search" clique, I did. There are over 400 topics with MG in it, and I use a 56k modem, so no dice. Sorry to post this). ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 Huh? Which gun has better optics and tripods? A .30 cal doesn't have as near as much punching power as a .50 cal. The MG42 doesn't either. The MG42 is mainly just an anti-infantry MG. What is it's calibre? 7.92mm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 Well, you have to consider that at long range, MG bullets fire in an arc. Therefore, bullets could land in the open top and bounce around inside, with predictable results. Also, the sides of M3 halftracks are pretty thin, so a 7.92 bullet can penetrate them at close range. There's a penetration chart for the Mg42 somewhere, but I don't know the link. Link, anyone? ------------------ No one but the enemy will tell you what the enemy is going to do. No one but the enemy will ever teach you where you are weak. Only the enemy tells you where he is strong. And the rules of the game are what you can do to him and what you can stop him from doing to you. -Ender's Game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banshee Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 You think the MG42 is too powerful? I've never (ever) lost a HT to MG42 fire. If you were talking about the US MMG .30 cal, I'm trying to think of an HT i've lost to MG fire (non-.50) and again I dont think I have lost an HT to them either. I am curious how close you are bringing your HT's to the MG positions (or vehicles with that weapon mounted on them). I suspect its pretty close range (100m or under). ------------------ Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 The M3 family of halftracks had very thin armor. At close range, at a favorable angle, with well aimed concentrated fire, a MG42 with tripod and optics (HMG42 team in CM) could in fact penetrate the side armor of a M3. Also don't forget, the side armor of an M3 is at 0 degrees slope. Not good for deflecting shots The trick is to keep your M3s at a safe distance from the enemy. About 300m+ I think. For the Germans, a 251 is not going to be too worried about the us Browning .30cal. Its armor and, importantly, armored slope mean it can withstand direct hits. However, a .50 cal is a damned lethal weapon and the 251's armor is simply not thick enough to defend against it except at long ranges. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob/1 Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 Didn't know that...well you learn something new here every day. ------------------ Game master of Robs CMC Join or get more info on Rob's CMC today Email me at RobsCMC@hotmail.com Rob -------------------------- For more info on Rob's CMC go to Robs CMC HQHome of Robs CMC Members of my CMC should join my CMC chat bord. Robs CMC Board BHQS board Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 I believe US halftracks had little to no armor on the bottoms. And yes, MG bullets skip off the ground, so if you were to fire at the ground in front of a US halftrack, the bullets would skip up into the 'purple heart boxes'. I also think the gas tank was under the passenger area. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 I see no problem. MMGs fire lots of ammo, some of it has to hit slits and other weak spots to hit the crew. Also, firing several rounds at the same area of armour will degrade the plate until subsequent rounds penetrate. This is how the Norwegians knocked out the German light tanks (PzKw I & II), since they didn't have any dedicated AT weapons. Given enough time and ammo a MMG can penetrate the frontal armour of any tank (IRL, not in CM). Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted November 28, 2000 Author Share Posted November 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus: Huh? Which gun has better optics and tripods? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I thought I was pretty clear. Guess not. An HMG is basically a MMG with better optics, tripod, more ammo, etc. ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted November 28, 2000 Author Share Posted November 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 109 Gustav: Also, the sides of M3 halftracks are pretty thin, so a 7.92 bullet can penetrate them at close range. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree that the sides of an M3 are thinner than most halftracks (plus 0 degree slope). However, they are armored, and do in fact deflect small arms fire. Sure, a round or two will find its way inside and cause a KIA or so. MG fire is small arms fire. Since there is no real difference in the stopping power of a HMG and MMG (same calibre), my M3's get ripped up. Now, what range? 400m. Again, I totally agree that a .50 cal will rip into any light skinned vehicle, but if an MMG or even HMG can, then so should other small arms fire. Again, I'm not saying MMG and HMG fire should be 100% ineffective, there is a chance that all types of MG fire will be effective. My contention is that it is around 15-25% in normal range. So far, it "seems" to be a lot higher. I'll pay even more attention to this and see what happens, but, again, I just keep seeing ht's at ranges greater than 300 m getting blown up. Oh, regarding rounds deflecting off the ground, to the underside of a halftrack...although I'm sure it happened on a few occasians, it is not the basis of a statistical model. This was the EXCEPTION, not the rule. I mean, how often can a soldier purposefully aim on the ground, hope it hits a hard surface (if soil, it will not deflect but imbed), aimed at the exact angle of deflection with the knowledge to know the incidence angle and deflection velocity, and hit the underside of a halftrack? That's like the odds of winning the lottery. Again, thanks for all your thoughts and comments. This is an interesting discussion (for me, at least). ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! [This message has been edited by Dr. Brian (edited 11-28-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 Did someone say "armor piercing"? The M2 .30-06 ammo series came in at least 4 flavors. The Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .30, M2 was the standard load for the M1 rifle. The M2, the Cartridge, Armor Piercing, Caliber .30, M2 was completely interchangeable with the standard ball ammo, but was meant for MGs and BARs. They had a black tip, steel core, had a slightly heavier bullet and some additional recoil. Even with a lower muzzle velocity they developed over 100 ft/lbs more pressure than the standard load, with a less deformable slug. There was also the M25 Tracer round, and an armor piercing incendiary round called, err, something else. The Germans also had AP as well as tracer ammo in the 7.92mm rifle/MG caliber. Since AP costs more and is overkill against human targets, they were not generally issued to rifle infantry, though the rounds were interchangeable in emergencies. The load for MGs seems to have varied quite a bit but the presence of the AP ammo loads is why HTs need to park at a safe distance from pedestrians with MGs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 Slightly OT, but since we're talking .50's... did anyone else read the story on the .50 sniper's rifle in the New York Times Magazine? Damned scary weapon, able to punch through more than 1.5 inches of steel plate. Cheers, Walter R. Strapps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Walter: Slightly OT, but since we're talking .50's... did anyone else read the story on the .50 sniper's rifle in the New York Times Magazine? Damned scary weapon, able to punch through more than 1.5 inches of steel plate. Cheers, Walter R. Strapps<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That would be the Barrett M82A1. Fires .50 BMG rounds in 10-round magazines, semi-automatic, unloaded weight is 28.5 lbs. Adopted by the USMC to punch holes in the engine blocks of light APCs, which it is very good at. http://www.barrettrifles.com/ I don't usually wax ecstatic about guns, but I think this is just about the niftiest gun ever. ------------------ Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 I got to hold, but not shoot (we were in a living room), a Barrett once. An amazing weapon, with a buffer spring like something on a garage door. It was outfitted with a Zeiss scope with range-finding reticle and was a true dream rifle. It is definitely not meant to be fired offhand. The gentleman had one of the most spectacular collections I've ever seen, truly the best of everything, and had used the Barrett to take an elk in Colorado at 800+ yards (and no they don't explode or anything, they just get a half-inch hole right through 'em). There are also some very insane gentlemen who build custom bolt-action .50 BMGs. They can have them. [This message has been edited by Mark IV (edited 11-28-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 That's the one. An incredible weapon, but one that scares the crap out of me. I mean it has a range of 4 miles!! And in the article, they had at least one guy who was capable of shooting accurately at two miles. In the hands on a good marksman, it's sort of the ideal weapon for assasination as it will punch through bullet-proof glass without too much difficulty. Cheers, Walter R. Strapps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutPL Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 Dr. Brian: A US .50 (12.7mm) Browning M2 HMG is NOT the same as a US .30 (roughly 7.62mm) Browning M1917 MMG. Though their designs are roughly the same, they differ greatly in range and power. The MMG fires the same cartridge as an M1 rifle. The HMG fires a round only slightly smaller then most early war AT rifles(14mm)! At a rate of about 500 rpm! So a .50 shouldnt have any problems toasting a German HT and perhaps even an AC if it got lucky. But I think you'll find that a .30 MMG will have very little luck with either. A german HMG on the other hand IS basically a MG42 with a stabilizing tripod and optics which give it a higher sustained rate of fire and much more accuracy. What really classifies it as a HMG is its poor maneuverability and weight. Not its stopping power or range. But since the Germans never really had to deal with a personnel carrier that could withstand concentrated 7.92mm fire, they didnt have to develop a heavier round for their infantry support weapons. A side note on the .50 Barrett (et al) Sniper Rifles. These things look really cool and fearsome (and heavy, and slow, and difficult to reload, require heavy ammo and the need for a backup weapon). But their practicality as a sniper system is limited. Thats why most US SOF units put them in a class all by themselves. Vehicle Disablement and Destruction. And how often do SF units have to go out and destroy a vehicle that cant be taken out by a laserguided bomb or missle? Very, very rarely. So does the the barrett get used much off the range? No. There are plenty of great sniper systems out there that dont have any of the drawbacks I listed above. As far as pracicality I would place the Barret right along beside the silly russian AT dogs some guys have been screaming for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfgardner Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 Those of us who have been lucky (?) enough to fire a .50 cal HMG know what unbelievable power this weapon has. Give me a .50 cal, a couple of spare barrels and enough rounds of ball ammo, and I'll saw down any brick building (normal bricks used in construction) in the world, row by row, at oh, say 500m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitsud42 Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 Having just had a stinking jeep with .50 take out my 251/1 at about 70m when the HT started shooting first irks me to no end! Now how do we teach these idiots how to shoot?!?!?! (I really hate that damn .50)but I do love the game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted November 28, 2000 Author Share Posted November 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ScoutPL: Dr. Brian: A US .50 (12.7mm) Browning M2 HMG is NOT the same as a US .30 (roughly 7.62mm) Browning M1917 MMG. Though their designs are roughly the same, they differ greatly in range and power. The MMG fires the same cartridge as an M1 rifle. The HMG fires a round only slightly smaller then most early war AT rifles(14mm)! At a rate of about 500 rpm! So a .50 shouldnt have any problems toasting a German HT and perhaps even an AC if it got lucky. But I think you'll find that a .30 MMG will have very little luck with either. A german HMG on the other hand IS basically a MG42 with a stabilizing tripod and optics which give it a higher sustained rate of fire and much more accuracy. What really classifies it as a HMG is its poor maneuverability and weight. Not its stopping power or range. But since the Germans never really had to deal with a personnel carrier that could withstand concentrated 7.92mm fire, they didnt have to develop a heavier round for their infantry support weapons. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Scout, I'm not certain if you've understood my posts. In no way did I compare the .30 cal to the .50 cal and say they are the same. And, I've been saying all along, that the .50 cal should have no problem ripping open a halftrack. With regard to the German MG42, again, I state that basically, the HMG is the same gun as the MMG, with better optics, tripod, more ammo, etc. I'm somewhat familiar with both weapons. So,my question is, what are you getting at? Can you give me more to where you're leading? I'm kind of lost about your post. Mark IV, Regarding the armor peircing. Again, I totally agree that there are AP rounnds. However, an AP round does not mean it'll go through. For example, the Stuards 37mm AP round will never go through the front of JS-III or Pv VI. Some AP rounds MAY be able to go through (depending on all those factors like velocity, size, force, etc). The same applies to the AP of a small arms weapon. Again, I'm not disputing your data, I'm just not convinced that what seems like everytime a MG shoots at my M3 from 400+ yards, it is getting waxed. Maybe I'm just running into a stream of bad luck with M3's????? Again, thanks for the input and valuable discussion. ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian: I agree that the sides of an M3 are thinner than most halftracks (plus 0 degree slope). However, they are armored, and do in fact deflect small arms fire. Sure, a round or two will find its way inside and cause a KIA or so. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A round or two? Do you know the ROF of a tripoded MG42. Factory specs say 1200 RPM but the weapon is capable and there have been reports of ROFs near 1500-1600 RPM. Now I think CM goes with the 1200 RPM but that is still 20 rounds a second. I would think that few more rounds than say...two.. enter the half-track with any given amount of MG42 fire brought to bear on it. Also.. The caliber is not as important as the length of the cartridge. The MG42 fires a 7.92x57mm round. For comparisons the Russian AK-47 fires a 7.62x39. 57mm is a freakin' LONG round and trust me... it makes a huge difference in the weapon's power. I have personally watched a MG42, tripoded and dialed in, open fire on a old junked card from like the 80's (ya know.. when they made the cars big and heavy). It chewed that car up like it was tin foil. There is NO way 10 men with M1 Garands or 98ks could do the same amount of damage I witnessed ocurring in about 5 seconds. Just no way. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Brian Posted November 28, 2000 Author Share Posted November 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf: Do you know the ROF of a tripoded MG42. Factory specs say 1200 RPM but the weapon is capable and there have been reports of ROFs near 1500-1600 RPM. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Jeff... of course I do! So, it kind of makes you wonder then, why on earth did they make halftracks? You may as well go in a soft-skinned vehicle. MGs are prevalent on a battlefield. All those "armored" vehicles aren't serving their design purpose. Yes, a MG can fire at a sustained rate of 800 rpm, before the barrel overheats. Again, I agree with you, however, a 1977 Malibu Classic getting shot up is in fact a piece of tin… not an inch or so of armor plating. Would anyone be willing to say if 1200 rounds in one minute hit the front of a Sherman, they would not penetrate? I would. Why? The armor thickness is obvious. Would a 37mm AP shell penetrate a Sherman. Disregarding a critical location, then some of the time, it would… most of the time, it wouldn't. All I'm saying is, a half-track is not a "car." A MG can do what you saw to a Jeep or Kubelwagen, not a half-track. Again, there just seems to be way too many kills of half-tracks when I play… and I'm talking both sides, me and my opponents. I'm going to have to talk to some WWII vets I know, and see if they recall anything like this. They'll probably tell me the same thing again however. What they told me a while ago was, in order to "flush out" the enemy (in a town), they would button up, go barreling into a town, and start to make them shoot. Otherwise, the Germans would be flanked and many times encircled. Now they knew where the Germans were. If in fact half-tracks were as easy to kill as in CM, they would not have done this, and I would not be talking to them. I'm sure the Germans had lots of MGs in the towns these WWII vets entered, in fact, I bet there were quite a few MGs So you see, I'm basing this observation on personal histories of actual WWII vets. that's why I'm having trouble accepting the current modeling. ------------------ Doc God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf: There is NO way 10 men with M1 Garands or 98ks could do the same amount of damage I witnessed ocurring in about 5 seconds. Just no way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> For 10 men to fire 20 rounds/second, each needs to fire 2 rounds. That's doable with a semi-auto like garand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 Well, there is certainly no guarantee that an AP will round will penetrate anything it happens to strike. But since you wondered "if an MMG or even HMG can {penetrate an HT}, then so should other small arms fire", I think the presence of AP in any MG load explains some qualitative difference between it and regular rifle fire. There is a quantitative difference as well- high ROF weapons are hitting the same general area repeatedly, so that every rupture, seam break, and rivet pop is capitalized on by the next round, to wear through the armor. (I'm not talking about .50s anywhere in this post). If the frontal armor on a German HT is 15mm sloped, it is probably pretty resistant in most places to .30 ammo. But there are slits and weak spots, anything can be worn down with repeated hits, and most of an HT isn't frontal or sloped or 15mm. 8mm of steel isn't really armor at all, just some shrapnel cover. With 0 degree slope an MG should make swiss cheese out of it. I'm sure ScoutPL can confirm that even our old M113 APC is vulnerable to sustained MG fire. So if HTs get taken out 100% by MG fire at 300m, which they don't in my CM experience, that would be bad. But if it happens a "fair amount", whatever that is, I wouldn't be surprised. Personally I equate the things with bicycles and horses, and never purchase them on my own; they are expensive bullet magnets best left out of direct fire. I'm sure there is some disagreement with this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 Consider some of the endearing nicknames the M3 received. From the Amis it garnered the whimsical "Purple Heart Box." The Soviets gave it the even cheerier "Coffin for five brothers." Or was that the Sherman? Anyway, I'm sure the Soviets had some nasty name for it Hell, one of the Finns can probably tell us about the time a Finnish Staff Sergeant killed an entire batallion of M3-mounted Soviet infantry using a condom, a maple leaf, and honey The M3 was, AFAIK, a decent piece of equipment, but sustained MG fire would certainly do some damage. 12mm frontal armor and a measly 6mm of armor on the sides doesn't really taking a whole lot of power to punch through. ------------------ Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh. [This message has been edited by Chupacabra (edited 11-28-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted November 28, 2000 Share Posted November 28, 2000 The spec for the .30-06 AP round: "fired at 7/8 inch thick homogenous armor plate at 100 yards, will not be less than .42 inch penetration." .42" = 10.922mm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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