JeffRaider Posted June 6, 2000 Share Posted June 6, 2000 Another "don't matter much" suggestion, but I'd really like a Movement to Contact Order. I find, mostly in forest combat, that if I order my men to advance, even on sneak, they'll sometimes keep advancing into the enemy. Now, this can be a bummer if it's not consistent. Example: A platoon advancing three woods. Center squad runs into enemy squad, stops, and starts firing. Beautiful. Left squad also sees aforementioned enemy squad, stops, starts firing. Perfect. Right squad also spots enemy squad, fires a burst and keeps on moving. Right into the jaws of a Volksgrenadier company. D'oh! I'd like a MTC order that forces your men to stop advancing once they come into CLOSE CONTACT with an enemy squad, meaning them spotting a tiger tank 2000 meters away will not stop them. Whaddayathink? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyamoto Musashi Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JeffRaider: Another "don't matter much" suggestion, but I'd really like a Movement to Contact Order.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Personally, I think it's a good idea. The alternative is to sneak in tiny increments, hoping that you won't see the enemy before the guys stop sneaking. I'd love to have a move/attack command that allows the boys to move along until they find an enemy... I hesitate to say this, but StarCraft had such a command; but that was an RTS and I've already sold in on auction. But yeah, I think the move to contact idea is a good one... is this something you guys have thought of already and discarded Steve/Charles/powers that be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manx Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Makes a lot of sense...but don't you think that half the "fun" of playing CM is the fact that you have to try and anticipate what/where/how and when you might encounter your enemy. One wrong move, one moment of madness and all your best laid strategies and plans lie in ruins. Too many cammands and too much control would ruin this game IMVHO. [This message has been edited by Manx (edited 06-06-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 I had that in mind for selecting hull down position. For example select the target and then go directly toward the target until it becomes visible. Then open fire. This would simplify search for hull down position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonm Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Perhaps an equivalent to the "hunt" command available to AFVs? ------------------ Regards, Mark:-{) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 The 'sneak' command sort of works like move-to-contact, but not quite - currently. However I just made some slight changes that make it work much more like that now. These changes will be part of the v1.01 patch. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crocky Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Thanks Charles How come you always seem to be a step ahead of the rest of us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screamin Demon Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 because he kool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screamin Demon Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 doh. accidental 2xpost. [This message has been edited by Screamin Demon (edited 06-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 If you are interested in this thread you might also consider reading the "Silly Infantry -- bug? " as similiar comments and suggestions are posted there. As well as a good juicy post by Steve regarding this issue(sort of). -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 06-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffRaider Posted June 7, 2000 Author Share Posted June 7, 2000 You the man, Charles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pfalz XII Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Charles and Steve, Do you plan to do something similar with armored units? I have to admit it is somewhat frustrating to order your AFV to hunt to a hull-down position over the crest of a hill in the direction of an enemy armor or AT unit, only to see it gain LOS and continue past the crest of the hill into the open, resulting in an easy kill for the enemy AFV. Using the target command usually doesn't help, because my unit usually loses its lock on the target before it crests the hill and gains LOS. I know this issue has been raised before, but the present set-up seems unrealistic to me. IMHO, any TC worth his salt would order his driver to halt as soon as his gunner acquires the target (except in unusual circumstances). Only green units would ordinarily expose themselves unneccesarily to enemy fire like that, IMHO. Some people might argue that sometimes you want to order your armor unit to target an enemy unit while advancing to cover (such as behind a building). This is also my understanding of how the game currently works (please correct me if I am wrong) My suggestion is to make my idea the DEFAULT move for the tactical AI. This way, your armor unit stops once it makes contact with the target. At the beginning of the next turn, if you are not happy with the position of your armor unit, THEN you can order it (using the move order) to advance to cover behind the building, etc. In my view, this better reflects the human instinct towards self-preservation. This is not meant to be a general bitch and moan about the gameplay of CM. I think you guys have done a fantastic job on this game that will revolutionize computer wargaming! This is about the only gripe I have about the game right now, and I can understand if there is not an easy fix for it. In the alternative, there may be an easy workaround that I haven't discovered yet. But, if it can be "tweaked" a little, I think it would really help. Thanks, I am literally drooling with anticipation for the release of the CD and the 1.01 patch! ------------------ Formerly known as not THE Charles from BTS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted June 7, 2000 Share Posted June 7, 2000 Hi Pfalz XII I have never had that much difficulty with the Hunt command. I expect that when I "hunt" an AFV to the crest of a hill it will stop and fire when it acquires LOF and LOS to a target. I have been playing under the assumption that if I tell an AVF to target another AFV that it does not have LOS to, that it will load the appropriate AP round (or HE round for soft targets) and swing its turret in the appropriate direction and open fire with that Loaded AP round the second it stops (hopefully) hull down and acquires LOS to the enemy AFV. I have not had any difficult excuting this tactic and I think it is modeled well with the Hunt command as it is. Perhaps a "creep to contact or LOS" command could be added so that the tank would not look for "other" targets when assigned the Hunt command. I would like to be sure that when I target any enemy AFV AND order my AFV to "Hunt" to the crest of a hill that it will "stick" to its assigned target and not hunt for other targets until its primary target is eliminated. Yes, the hunt command works, but I would like to target an enemy AFV that is out of LOS and issue the "creep to acquire LOF" command and know it would move slowly to a hull down position and fire on its designated Target until it is destroyed. I think in reality the hunt command does excatly this MOST of the time. -tom w <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pfalz XII: Charles and Steve, Do you plan to do something similar with armored units? I have to admit it is somewhat frustrating to order your AFV to hunt to a hull-down position over the crest of a hill in the direction of an enemy armor or AT unit, only to see it gain LOS and continue past the crest of the hill into the open, resulting in an easy kill for the enemy AFV. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 06-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pfalz XII Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 The problem with the hunt command right now, IMO, is that it is too general. My understanding is that right now, the hunt command will cause your unit to move and engage the first target it acquires LOS to. The problem occurs when you (the player) can see an enemy AFV or ATG that your tank can't see at the beginning of the turn. YOU want your tank to move and engage that unit. All too frequently, however, your tank winds up engaging a unit that is absolutely no threat to itself, e.g. a flamethrower unit 600 meters away, only to get brewed up by the real threat. BTS has apparently tweaked the length of time before your tank will break its target lock, and this will help, but I don't know if that is the solution to this problem (IF there is a problem). In my view, the situation is like this: you are the TC of a Sherman75/76. Reports from the battlefield indicate there is a ATG or AFV "somewhere to the NE of your position. Move out and engage it." Right now in CM, TC's have a VERY short memory and seem to forget all about that enemy armor unit. If I am that TC, I am keeping in the back of my mind that there is an enemy AFV out there, and I am keeping my main gun oriented to the NE until I am SURE there is no threat coming from that direction. If I SEE that unit, I am going to halt and engage it--not keep moving, oblivious to the danger. Ideally, the fix to this problem is to have the tank stop as soon as it acquires the enemy armor or ATG. As an alternative, an "engage" or "move to contact" order might be added for AFV's, in addition to the hunt and move commands. In effect, it would cause the TC to have a little more "tunnel vision," forcing him to focus more on the given target. True, he might ignore some other "juicy" targets, but didn't real TC's in WWII sometimes suffer from target fixation? Actually, a little more target fixation might actually be a good thing. CM units are sometimes pretty indiscriminate with their targetting. Okay, I'm rambling now. Anybody else want to help out? ------------------ Formerly known as not THE Charles from BTS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pfalz XII: Okay, I'm rambling now. Anybody else want to help out? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is actually something I find extremely frustrating c (not the ramble, the target acquisition process). Target acquisition by the sIG in VoT works just atrocious for me. I have watched it very often and they just can't make up their mind about firing at any target. This is a problem when targets are distributed over a wider front, because what seems to happen is: 1. See infantry squad at 200m - squad fires, threat, must engage threat -rotate 2. Infantry squad suppressed by somebody else and stops firing - MG on hill opens up - must engage MG - rotate 3. infantry squad becomes unsuppressed, starts firing - must engage infantry squad - rotate 4. new infantry squad comes out of the woods at 150m - must engage them - rotate 5. Bang, 60 sec are up, sIG has not fired once at everybody but instead rotated all the time, I bang my head on table fortunately enough supplied with soft wrist rest, so no damage to enemy and my head Question: is it just me or is this a problem in target acquisition? Regardless of the answer, I find it extremely frustrating. Oh, and it happens (to a lesser degree) with the 75 pillbox as well. ------------------ Andreas The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 We've made several changes to the TacAI to tackle these problems, so I don't think they'll vex you any further in v1.01. For example, tanks - if given a target by the human player - are far less likely to target someone else when that 'intended' target is out of LOS. I.e. they don't get distracted so easily. We tweaked other stuff too. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 GREAT Thanks again Charles and thanks for all the WONDERFUL new eye-candy explosions as seen at MadMatt's site WOW!! Now lets al work to double BTS sales, how? simple everyone who has ordered one copy of CM, order another one, will double their sales over night. -tom w <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: We've made several changes to the TacAI to tackle these problems, so I don't think they'll vex you any further in v1.01. For example, tanks - if given a target by the human player - are far less likely to target someone else when that 'intended' target is out of LOS. I.e. they don't get distracted so easily. We tweaked other stuff too. Charles<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 Germanboy, Just a quick question about your problem with the sIG, was it loaded and ready to fire? That thing takes forever to reload (a good chunk of the turn, at least..). I have noticed the AI switching targets as it reloads, but it usually fires right away as soon as it's reloaded. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager 7 Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 Charles, Great to hear about the targeting tweaks in the patch. I was wondering if there couldn't be some sort of "priority targeting" for direct fire weapons to include MG's and pillboxes. On a related note; is there any way to keep the pillboxes from firing at every available target? I.e., keeping them camouflaged and hidden to ambush an approaching enemy would be a nice feature,...possibly by using range or threat rings etc. Just a thought as right now the wooden pillboxes are nothing but tank fodder unless they are completely out of sight behind buildings or hills. Thanks in advance. Out here... ------------------ When the situation is obscure....attack! CGen. Heinz Guderian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ben Galanti: Germanboy, Just a quick question about your problem with the sIG, was it loaded and ready to fire? That thing takes forever to reload (a good chunk of the turn, at least..). I have noticed the AI switching targets as it reloads, but it usually fires right away as soon as it's reloaded. Ben<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I just had it in an ambush position against a Sherman driving in a distance of 40m. They did not lose the shot until in the next turn I ordered them to target the Sherman. Then they took about 50secs. By that time they were spotted, both shots went off simultaneously, result, one brewed Sherman 105, crew cut down on bailing, one abandoned sIG. Crew alive, withdrawn by me and issued marching orders to the East Front. ------------------ Andreas The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Sabot Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 Germanboy, Not to sound critical or anything, but perhaps you need to re-think your tactics with the 150 IG. In the past i used to position my 150 with excellent LOS to large areas of the battlefield, and with free rein to engage anything it chose. I quickly realized that didn't work. I now position it in cover with only a small area of responsibility and with an ambush marker to prevent it from blasting away prematurely. If positioned properly and hidden until the right moment it could be a showstopper. Having said that, i do agree with you about the way it 'bounces' from target to target. I understand that Charles did address that issue. I hope this helps ------------------ "I do like to see the arms and legs fly" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Black Sabot: Germanboy, Not to sound critical or anything, but perhaps you need to re-think your tactics with the 150 IG. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Cheers Black Sabot, I know it is more my ineptness than anything else. I for one don't blame the game engine for my screw-ups. This one was just very painful to watch. I usually keep it hidden until the infantry appears on the crest and then have it fire until the arty destroys it. Use ambush markers too. I guess it is just my bad luck combined with my ineptitude. ------------------ Andreas The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pfalz XII Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 Super, BTS! These guys are the hardest working (and most responsive) developers in the software business! Keep up the good work! Oooh, I am getting excited now! Somebody stop me....! ------------------ Formerly known as not THE Charles from BTS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 Jager7 - you'll be able to "hide" pillboxes so they won't fire so much. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 8, 2000 Share Posted June 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Jager7 - you'll be able to "hide" pillboxes so they won't fire so much. Charles<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Charles, you guys rule. May I be the first to express this sycophantic comment, please. Oh please. ------------------ Andreas The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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